Drawing research: Using drawing as a participatory research paradigm

Drawing has had a place in social research for a long time, especially in anthropology as field note taking, but also more specifically and recently in arts-based research and visual studies. Social research on drawings is a well-established method in a variety of related areas from psycho-social research with children to market research. Research with drawings however, where both the artefact and the practice of drawing are a constitutive part of the production of knowledge being sought, often in collaboration with research participants, is rarer. In this talk Dr Monica Sassatelli looks into the latter, with particular focus on the affordances of narrative drawing.

There is some drawing involved in this presentation: please have some paper and a pencil or pen ready.
 
Dr Monica Sassatelli is Associate Professor at the University of Bologna, Italy. She is a cultural sociologist with research expertise on on cultural events and institutions, cultural policies and creative industries. Among her publications are the monograph Becoming Europeans. Cultural Identity and Cultural Policies and the edited collection Arts Festivals and the Cultural Public Sphere. Recent articles include: “‘Europe in your Pocket’: narratives of identity in euro iconography” (Journal of Contemporary European Studies) and “Symbolic Production in the Art Biennial: Making Worlds” (Theory, Culture and Society).

Transcript

Nicole Brown: 0:05

hello, and welcome everybody to this month's practices research network meeting, which is one in our many seminar. seminars that we've had this academic year, and today we have got with us, Dr Monica so tell me who is associate professor at the University of California. And i'm really excited to have Monica here and she's going to be talking today about drawing research using drawing as a participatory paradigm. And i'm not going to say much more about that other than and can everybody, please make sure they have pen and paper on them. Because there may be some drawing or doodling involved in today's session as well, so in case you haven't gotten your materials ready, this is your opportunity to go and dash and come back real quick. And Monica with that i'm stuffing myself sharing my screen and i'm handing over to you. you're on mute no.

Monica Sassatelli: 1:09

Thank you. And thank you also for the reminder about the drawing materials, let me share my screen. This one Okay, with a second. Here we are okay. brilliant So yes, thank you, Nicole for the invitation and thank you, everybody to be here. Really excited to talk about drawing drawing research, because I think it is a very. important and serious topic, although I hope this will be a playful session and, in fact, there will be some little drawing so you just need a couple of a for printing paper is perfectly fine and a pencil or a pen you know nothing, nothing fancy, but we will we will use them, hopefully. So when we want to wanted to talk about drawing research or drawing in research. Of course, social research mostly. We talk of drawing combined with words generally it's very unlikely that the drawing will stand on its own completely and when we combine drawing with words, the common name, for that is comics. Although that doesn't sound very academic so we may also want to say narrative drawing and i've used the typical comic device of the thought. bubble in this case and, in fact, one way, a very important and common way for comics to combine words and images is too is with speech bubbles or thought bubbles, which is how we. frame and we express voice and the thought and the words of the researcher of the research participants as well, in fact, one of the themes today. That Nicole asked me to focus on is this idea of well reflexivity and position ality so the role of the researcher and the research participant so whose voice, we are. reporting, we are giving validation to whose voices heard and seen in a way, but I have to say that today, for me, I mean the subtitle says research paradigm, which is a kind of grand. subtitle and suggest much more structure than that actually is an order you know order the really presentation this is more for me. A kind of an invitation to almost mainstreaming drawing so considering drawing as a partner in research at all level phases or moments from thinking, the topic to presenting and I will, in fact, mostly concentrate in what I think is generally less. talked about, we tend to talk, when we talk about doing research which is other longest 30 marginal but long history, anyway, but tends to be either for data collecting or for. Presentation of dissemination presentation of researchers out and instead I will think more of drawing as a way to think and also as a way to analyze which can be done collaboratively. So you know, an invitation to main streaming drawing or to say it in another way, I just wish everybody would draw. Because, as anybody who does draw some drawing. Drawing makes you see, that is, the that is the idea, so the plan is that I will look into drawing as a way to think and to analyze so this what I just said, basically, I then we'll concentrate a little bit more in detail to the use of narrative drawing so comics in research which. is developing very much in recent times, and in fact as its own acronym comics based research cpr so look a little bit into that and then I will give an example, through my own. research and teaching also because also teaching is figures here so drawing for thinking for teaching for doing research for everything really. So drawing as a participatory research method, yes, but also for all those other things, but. which makes me think that actually maybe we should also give some definition definitions are very important, especially when they seem obvious so maybe that's where we should start from so my zero is. What is drawing so I could continue with. should perhaps continue, in fact, with the academic references, so I think a useful operative definition we could. spend the whole seminar, and in fact all courses dedicated to this, as you can imagine, but let's not do that, then let's say instead just use this one. Drawing as visual or expressive mark making just to convey the fact that we are not going to be too concerned about. techniques and methods materials, but you know it's that's very inclusive, but you will find that is also useful. When when you have to do things you know, we need to do things with definitions in research, and I think this, this is a useful one, but I also want to give a more. poetic one which I think is also, in fact, even more useful, and that is from Paul Claire pedagogical sketchbook which has this wonder of the definition of a drawing as taking a line for a walk. And I think this is, this is a particularly poetic but useful definition, because it immediately raises a series of questions. On this is actually the depiction so he's already a comic even from Paul Claire where he has the definition and the drawing of a line going for a walk of being taken for a walk. But I think it is particularly useful because it raises a certain. number of important questions questions of time. question of space, you know I walk is of course movement in space, but also requires time, so our narrative dimension, if you like, but there are also issues of who's taking what and where, for this walk and how how this is this is happening. So, in a way, we can see in an abstract way issues of position ality being represented, but perhaps this is actually not all raised immediately, as I said, perhaps I need to take you with me in the walk that took me to this issue and. So what I did is I not only reproduce so cut and paste to say to the technical terms. The verbal and visual definition as as I did here, and you are seeing you know with with definitions with variable definitions. I need to sort of paraphrase the words in my head to make the mind so, then I use them in different sentences, so I play I appropriate the verbal definitions and concepts as we do when when we think. And I need to do that with drawings to put up some strange but that's what what I do so, I did it with this drawing with the first with the figure four on the left, I guess. From black and I reproduce city as in ABC, as you can see, so first what I did I traced it. You can see the one on the top I actually traced it, as you know, either. don't remember how I did this one, whether against the window, as you do, as a kid or I now, I have a lightbox but anyway there's many ways to try stuff and we're talking about tracing later. Then the second time I sort of free hand copied it and these, as you can see it's almost the same, but then you can see some little difference. And so, then I wonder, is this the equivalent of a paraphrase is what is the equivalent of a paragraph for this for for a drawing what. different forms of appropriations, there are four drawings and now different a form of appropriation of reality, a drawing is compared to words so who's drawing here Claire or high if I retype the words we would definitely say that Claire is still cooking. But if I read bro the drawing what's happening now of course Claire plays a lot with the line for the old books, they will book is about this line going for walks. And I also did a little bit in the and, as you can see, in my see sketch I played a little bit with the idea inserted a couple of words. In the line and the idea was to visualize the different ways in which meaning emerges still lines on paper and the completely different ways of interpreting any issues that. they're raised, so this is the second and a little playful exercise and now it's your turn as I started showing my drawings and before we allow words to dominate the scene for too long. it's time to do a little drawing so please take your your a four and take it in the sort of vertical position or if it's not an A for that so right but anyway, the paper you have if it is rectangular in the vertical position you place it down, and you have your. Your pen or. or pencil and i'm gonna tell you what to do, I will give you one minute, and you will also close your eyes, so you are going to draw with your eyes closed. No, not right now i'm just to say that I also because you're seeing it, this is inspired by the exercises that they wonderful lynda Barry does. she's a comic artists also written insightfully about the relationship between visual and verbal representation, this is one of our books. And also, you can find some of our workshops now because she during covert she did lots of online ones so i've taken in spillage from from exercises, so one minute I will tell you, you know I will be your timer and as lynda Barry does, I will put some music on which helps. So one minute, starting now, you will be drawing full body mermaid with your eyes closed, and here we go. Nice. diva. And 20 just a light Gray tomatoes. Waiting tape 54321 okay stop. Okay, well, if anyone wants to show the drawing of course i'll be happy to see. If not own wow. lovely. You know it's it's I mean it's funny how they you can really see, they are mermaids. Even though you are your eyes close and also, you can see, the different the different styles, you know, and this is also something that lynda Barry says. That there's always immediately, especially when you do something to treat yourself out of it like you're closing your eyes or thank, thank you for showing me the drawings. Closing your eyes, sometimes drawing with your non dominant hand then then your your voice takes takes over so thank you that's that's great there will be some more drawing. later. Okay, so. Of course, Linda body is really good, but this is not quite social research, but this next bit is so i'm going to use as a reference here for a little bit Michael taussig. Who, some of you may know, is an anthropologist and a few years ago we published this book on drawings in fieldwork so I swear I saw this and that's the title is a personnel book on drawings in in his field of fieldwork journals. And he starts by remarking the drawing is a kind of an opening between an inner and outer worlds is phrase, if you like, in a very. Philosophical way of seeing that materializes in the act of drawing and then immediately enlist john birder as a reference and and he says that and here is the quote for Berta. Drawing is an activity much older than writing or architecture, it is as old as song that inflection of language in the drawing is fundamental to the energy that makes us human as singing and dancing and. Drawing also other something that painting sculpture and videos and installations lack corporate reality. So, in fact, the act of drawing is what counts more than the drawings, the product, and this becomes quite important, in research, social research, because of course we are not after artistic. Excellence you know that's really not the point that doesn't mean that we, we are not interested in the specificities of drawing per se, but not in the artistic, if you like, skill. So at this fundamental level we're discussing here, drawing can be integrated into social research as an ongoing practice of thinking through drawing. to prompt oneself or such participant to draw or interact with drawings requires from all involved both a disposition of playfulness. Because we associate drawing with childhood as well, but also a willingness to be unsettled to experience discomfort. Drawing is not unusual activity that people feel competent or a tease we normally even for the people who draw it requires time and effort that is really prone to failure, much as I would say, writing, but. A new a so to close with tosic again how sick again drawing, and this is the second quote provide a welcome pose to the writing machine. whereby another philosophy of representation and meditation takes over it is nice to walk on two legs, instead of one. And I think this is, you know, in this sense that drawing is a kind of a mythological processes or war as a whole, a parallel one with respect. To the main the verbal or numerical ones that we that have been mainstream they are my stream for a reason I don't I don't want to say that we should only draw. But there's something to be said, by being about being open to drawing and to. This different mode and this takes me to cvr or comics based research, because once drawing stops being a kind of an unusual practice within research, it will stay start making its way out of proprietary notebooks into actual research projects. And here, one of the advantages of narrative drawing is the contribution to collaborative or participatory practice based research, so my back in my computer. And in foreground in issues of reflexivity. So you can ask research participants to draw trace make comics you can collaborate with them intervening on the drawing or them intervening on yours. And the very fact of drawing as graphic and Nora have noted, here we have a. sock poulos speaking in a way, stimulates conversation, and I have another couple of quotes i'm giving you as ammunition if you should defend the drawings, with the people or the time using to defend it with with you as well. Of course, using comics or narrative drawing doesn't mean you have to produce a graphic novel the logic, combining words and images may not be a narrative in its basic. sense, it can be description interpretation or a way to expose contradiction and paradoxes you know you can. As a glue between words and images and as narrative you can have you can follow several several procedures. You can draw comics to visually Chronicle the social world or a phenomenon or a theory you're studying. And, in so doing, discovered connection and points of view reveal by the visual proximity of things, the may stay verbally distance. And you can use cartooning or realism and you can trace photographs, for instance, each practice enabled constraints you in different way, as in different ways. And in fact you know, a frame drawing a comic sorry i'm really being attacked. As a multimedia multimodal medium a narrative drawing page made of several panels, which are the basic unit of a comic. A frame drawing with the text usually contains material for several analytical dimensions and yet I will show you something else that i've done on the way of paraphrasing. This is my redrawn version of a explanation of how comic may be included into especially qualitative research. And I have to say that, then I contacted Rachel Williams and she was happy because I was worried, I said, my God, maybe i've done something strange and and and then she she was really, really sweet and happy that i'm doing this i'll show you after this is her original and this is my version. So here what Rachel is Richard Williams, is trying, is doing is some. indication of how you know and how comics can be used in qualitative research and all the different levels of information that can be given. verbally only visually only and through the combination of of both so there's emotional aspects there's. bodily aspects and then there's, of course, the narrative dimension. And you know one does need a little. Training, if you like, or alphabet ization into how comics work, for instance, the fact that the gutter the space between panels is a way to convey time. Or at least passage sequence of some kind. But you know this, of course, like any medium, it has its own conventions, they are quite known as at least the basic ones. But they are really useful and especially this idea of both portraying the research and the research participants and who's speaking moose thinking who's interpreting can be. fema ties in different ways and and in a way, for me, it was also I as again instead of simply reproducing what I found with this is rachel's. original I just decided to stay with the drawing and, as I did it of course I changed it, this is my process, this is, I printed it and then I took notes and added things. And for me, it was a way to understand it better appropriated and doing things in a way, I think my voice to that. We are approaching the next and second and final exercise in drawing and it is a little bit more complicated and a little longer just two minutes instead of one one thing because i'm asked going to ask you to draw a person I will let you keep your eyes open. But in case you worry Linda body does say that people are scared to draw people so she suggests to use this cartooning way brunetti style. which basically is you draw a big round and that's the end, then you do a kind of an oblong shape and that's the body and then instead of a stick man, which cannot move. You just drew noodles which which are more more movable both for the legs and for the answer, and you can see, you can actually put them in any position, and they will will work. So this is for us this is our actually a steal from our workshop from the batteries work, you can see, she has drawn or self brunetti style. But you can see her because she has glasses and bow bow when ahead and then she's made herself into an astronaut, but anyway, so if you want, you can use this brunetti style if that makes you feel you know more comfortable because you are going away, I need the music too. Because you are going to draw for two minutes yourself are portrait. But wait don't think too much because I have another about how you want to do it okay so two minutes and I will. I will stop you when the time is over, if you prefer, and want to do it with eyes close do it with ice growth, but I think this is a little bit too difficult but up Okay, here we go, you have two minutes. Our Barbecue places. done. b. c D. 30 seconds left. Free. Thought. OK. OK, so now you have portraits. of yourself. Oh yes, lovely I like the hair. Really. really well if you feel like posting them, then I can see them later. as well. Thank you, that they're really, really great. Okay, so. Next okay well this this is that I don't remember what. This is just to show some again my drawings and this me trying to think about the relationship of verbal and visual representation. And this is something i've also published so you can look it up, but I think we are running a little bit late, so I want to move on to the example of from my research Joe or. Teaching as well. Because you know I. As we've seen with the research, the brunetti style even very simple line drawings. can achieve you know. kind of. realistic. representation. But if your research topic or approach would recommend a certain. pictorial realism. One way to achieve this is combining photographs and drawings, especially through photo tracing it is what you're seeing here. And what i'm going to briefly describe through my example, so what i've done recently I explored the potentialities of line drawing by tracing over photographs. So the idea is to take or illicit photographs and this can be done in various ways, depending on the project focus. And then, as part of the analytical face trace them yeah now again there are aware various ways to do that, or you can ask the participants that research participant to trace to. peel back layers of reality, if you like, layers and boundaries, to get to the core of what. You often discover, as you do it, it matters, focusing on the objects or subjects, but also in their relationships. and on narratives so the practicalities of the method involves taking photographs according to guidelines which you would establish as a researcher. And then line tracing selected images, you can use translucent paper or other devices, there are many also digital versions of course now. The tracing can be done several times each one focusing on different aspects of the selection. And thus, of interpretation involved in the act this process can also be done collaboratively with research participants, and this is what I tried to do. I experimented with this method with the graduate students have a module I teach an art fashion and society. And we wanted to explore our identity is expressed and perform with the material and social world that surrounds. US starting with what is closes and so clothes and other objects that surround our body. So students selected photos of themselves that they thought define them, then they they the students trace them concentrating on the clothes and details they felt were important. thinking and into doing often discovering that they what they wanted to communicate. The guidance, the yard, is that they could intervene as they wanted, they could select past images using old photos collage you know they were really free. And then, what i've done here, so what you're seeing is actually my tracing because i've collage. And retrace some of the tracing as part of my own reflection, and also as part of the class discussion that we had and so as inspiration for this class this discussion. And I have to say that recurring themes relevant distinctions and, in general, meaningful analysis is a merge with the tracing and the production of the sequence of images. Often, a surprise for the drawing person itself, for instance, here, you can see, in the middle. The loving the tail reserved for a top made by the mother by students, it takes quite a lot of time, you know, to do all these things and. As you try to say, is it really worth the time of doing it, and so you realize what is worth the time and and also you are. prompted to reflect, for instance, here, we see the private versus public image many students representing themselves, both in the. Traditional clothes, this is an international class and into more work clothes and and also, they are also asked them to write a narrative about this, and so that was part. of their reflection and, if you want to see a little bit of a making off, I am not very digital so I just just like to be messy, and so I did a lot of cut and paste and. taking notes and realizing oh bags are everywhere so let's concentrate on the minds and go back and look for all the bags, and you know think things like that is a kind of a. recursive and process that takes time, drawing takes a lot of time it's not is not a time saving methods, I would say, and if you want to. know more on tracing this work by Michael I am at least a reference in the end i'm approaching the end, in fact, I think that was my my end i've just put. just put this. Sorry, and this, because it was circulated, together with the invitation and so maybe maybe raise some questions so is that, in case anybody has questions, this is one of my drawings. My again reflecting on what is it that we are representing and the fact that, depending on the context, something can be a big leaf as molly four or three and. The possibilities that are open up when we combine words and images and also, I guess, the fact that the drawing a bit like writing is never finished and this open ended, and this is part of what drawing brings. To to research, so I think probably taken longer than usual and Nicole, has been very kind and patient so i'll stop here, so thank you this is based on a chapter that is forthcoming called comics or narrative drawing in a book on how to do social research with. With comics in my case. And this is the list of references but i've used Okay, so thank you and i'll stop here.

Nicole Brown: 36:28

Thank you very much, Monica Thank you it's great to to have had you here and to hate to hear you talk about your work is really exciting, there are some comments in the in the chat box already about how amazing this is and and how exciting, this is and some other people saying. they're doing similar kinds of work, so this is something that's of interest to too many of us there was one question. which I said we would raise and once you're done and you mentioned earlier that you were redrawing the drawing there and and you know this was about sort of reprinting it and then publishing it. Again, as in your reader on version, and the question here is specifically about did you need to seek permission. From the publisher not just from the author of the book, but also from the publishing company. And it goes on the common goes on i've had to do that for doing similar things, even if the artist or the illustrator says yes, sometimes the publisher understands the images differently than text and doesn't allow reprinting. So that's what the question was, and it may not be relevant in your case at all, but this is something that was of interest to people.

Monica Sassatelli: 37:45

Now is really interesting and the question is that I I don't know I still worry about it in the sense of that so. that's all I did I contact that I mean I did it and then I thought Oh, maybe I cannot do it, so I contacted the illustrated. Richard Williams and she was no this is brilliant, yes, yes, do it, and I think she published originally online so maybe it's not an issue anyway, it was already. It was already reprinted in the sense that originally I actually didn't find it in her direct work, I found it because it's cited in in chapter about using comics in research, and so it has already been reproduced, but there is in the kind of is reproduced is a copy. So what i'm waiting for, because this is a forthcoming chapter, so you know you still has to go to prove so I guess maybe the publisher will ask me something and I will discover what's going on, but I. I may because of this question alerts me, maybe i'll do something before but yes, I think is a very Gray area, because you know if you read draw something, then it becomes yours. To a certain extent, which is you know it also why you can draw in a courtroom but you cannot take photographs there's different rules for drawing. You know what you're stealing from reality when you draw is different than when you photograph or when you speak so then into is also, you know as a practical question that is also interesting philosophically and I.

Nicole Brown: 39:31

Thank you, thank you very much. So there were a few requests there to see your reference list and and the.

Monica Sassatelli: 39:37

books and the lady share.

Nicole Brown: 39:39

Could you could you share em could you share with us the slides. yeah and.

Monica Sassatelli: 39:45

And I can put them on the on the website as well, for people to download if that's right. Okay, yes, but I go to me show them now.

Nicole Brown: 39:52

Thank you, there we go and people can take a screenshot of that as well, thank you.

Monica Sassatelli: 39:56

The book is this. Your.

Nicole Brown: 40:02

Then the other thing was going back to version versus quote about corporate reality and in what sense, do you think drawing involves a different type of copper reality than, say sculpture or installation.

Monica Sassatelli: 40:19

yeah now that is interest that is the full quote, I think, drawing is is both something that you do you know you do with your hands, I guess what to sculpture, that is true, but as a more as a kind of this more distance. Because you is you know you do you do with your hands as you right but you're not writing and you're trying to to get inside. What you are. What you're drawing you're not you are representing, it is a form of representation, but it is, of course, different that verbal representation is less abstract. When you write apple you are writing any apple in the world, when you draw an apple you're drawing that apple hopefully not any apple in the world, so it's you know this is part of the fact that they are different ways of obstruction and symbolize ation. and also the fact that we're drawing does take a long time, and so that, in that, in that sense, I think, or reality. And being that, with your body. I don't think that the distinction, with the. sculpture was particularly fleshed out that it comes from from the quote, and so I don't know if this is a. satisfactory answer but yeah.

Nicole Brown: 41:52

Thank you know that's great and the other question was do you see drawing different from painting, and in which way, do you think, are there any difference if there are any.

Monica Sassatelli: 42:04

Well, I think, for our purposes of integrating into social research not not really I think you know if you are making your marks with. With what is the word. With a brush yes, with a brush rather than. Only came to mind in French, then I don't know why. So you can do it with a brush rather than with a pencil I didn't even I didn't see any difference I add another example which I then cut. Because of time which is this idea of painting with data so that you will intervene. intervene on your even your interview transcripts painting on it doing things in a collage thing as well collage thing is neither painting or drawing but it's it's it's fine I mean it's fine, it can also be integrated so. And comics you know comic is required also painting, depending on the comic artist, you can use a brush or Laura marker or you can blind row and then paint in the colors so now for for these purposes, I think is good to be as inclusive as possible in terms of techniques, yes.

Nicole Brown: 43:28

I think I mean, from my point of view, you know, one of the things that you were saying straight at the beginning, is that a lot of people feel uncomfortable drawing. And I think in many ways it helps to call it mark making because because yeah somehow the aesthetics are taken out of that equation, and in my own work, I use a lot of Lego for the same reasons, because Lego models, but when people work with Lego models. They can't make. aesthetically beautiful models, they are just anything, because the bricks are what they are, and so there is a lot there in terms of kind of helping overcome that. That that concept shall ization and we have and the expectations we put ourselves under if we think of what now, I have to draw. and yeah just ask one thing about a position ality and reflexivity of what you were talking about earlier, where you were saying that you would receive tracing over your students tracing and when we look at that final image, then, and is, whose work is that and is that analysis. Or is that reflexivity or is that reflection.

Monica Sassatelli: 44:37

Well, who is working to To be honest, I don't know anymore, in fact I wouldn't I wouldn't think yeah I mean I don't know. I think it's mine in the sense that i've retraced and I made the combination of you know, is several students all together it's not just one. And it is part of the chapter, so that also I am I guess publishing, as I do say that is retracing and I told the students. I think if it was a more central you know i'll work on that I think it would have to be more also acknowledged, or you know or thought about I think it is analysis, to be honest, in the sense that it is through putting the things you know analysis. means separating things according to concepts, you know and. distinguish making analytical distinction so that's what I did, putting them together so putting together seeing this theme of work and private life, for instance, or the theme of accessories or. Highlighting the different types of narratives that they used. So I think it is analysis, but it is participatory in the sense that I also had their narratives they, as well as tracing they also wrote what they were trying to do so, I could use that and also we talked about it. So I think. That is what makes it. Collaborative and and the fact that, in a way, reveals that analysis is never a single person does it is always collaborative in a way.

Nicole Brown: 46:38

No, I agree with that now there's a couple of questions here about colors. Now, because you know the drawings that under doodling if I call it doodling the kinds of things that we did earlier as well. Obviously, just kind of one color, although I did see some people share their work and he was in more colors than one. And it says here in his book drawing Phillip Ross and suggests that drawing, which is often but not always in black and white is removed from the reality and as because reality is in color. So also is quite abstracted and like you say about words as well, the next step, drawing it would that be drawing using color is that is that the next step of kind of you know, adding that a different layer

Monica Sassatelli: 47:25

hmm. Well, certainly. Certainly callers color add an element about already if you are, if you are shadowing you know if you're using these are just literally line drawings there's no shade there's no almost you know very little detail. Already, is that i'm not sure I would. make such a qualitative distinction between with the without color I think is is more gradual you know and gradual matter in black and white, is already color dinner ways. and adding also color I don't think it changes fundamentally the nature of it if that's maybe the answer in the sense it doesn't. It doesn't really make it significantly more realistic to me in the sense for again not in artistic sense but for our purposes. And I think one one thing that is really interesting for with comics is that even cartooning even obstruction can convey. social, cultural, meaning and, of course, there are examples you know you can you can write a novel novel graphic novel with mouse and cats and obviously be referring to the concrete historical. facts and that's the same for us, you know we we we could portray ourselves as an animal and. And in fact I think the total suppose that I quoted representing himself as a donkey often as a researcher, as this kind of Alter Ego and and you know, I think that can be a way to address you know realism as well.

Nicole Brown: 49:33

Thank you so there's a couple of comments here where somebody says i'm drawing portrays from my research somebody else says. I do images of the natural phenomenon as a metaphor of a human condition, and so there are obviously people engaging with that kind of work in different ways as well. And the other thing that was mentioned is about copyright apparently somebody said they checked with their university and as long as you don't make money off of it and it's. referenced properly, then you can do that, whereas somebody else says we're actually there isn't an issue of justice. And if an artist draws it and gets paid and then it becomes published again and again, you know where is that kind of. You know that artists getting getting the money for it so that's something that's that that's a very, very interesting and important point to be made. And one last thing that one one last question and you're going to have to answer real quick and going back to the layering of the tracing. And how does it, how do you keep the layers of these tracings that you did do you support the only only the final trace to images or do you keep all the tracing papers. Do you understand the final training and images, as it already layers of each process So how do you treat the layers to to get to that final product.

Monica Sassatelli: 50:55

Okay, it is sometimes really useful to keep some layers I mean all the layers is a bit like all drafts of a paper. But you know it can be useful to show the layers to especially you know if you are doing them with something specific in mind, for instance, if you're once you're tracing thinking of the relationships let's say you're tracing all humid rather than clashing. You maybe want to concentrate on the relationship between people or objects in the image. or, instead, you want to concentrate on certain details that to tracings will be very different, and you can have both. is a bit like using a filter on a photograph you know, so it is the BAT is more manual and takes longer, and it is an analytical process in this case I didn't or I kept in the sense of because I was working. manually I have of course all the. kind of stages, but I don't think they are particularly significant, apart from showing the fact that it is a layered process, you know methodological innocence. So it can be useful mythologically to show that there is the layering process or, in certain cases, it can be useful also you know, to show as a different analytical device.

Nicole Brown: 52:29

Thank you very much, so I would like to say once again, thank you very, very much Monica for having been here, this was a real real quick our hadn't I believe there is an hour already a lot of comments in the comment box so we're gonna we're gonna check check up on those together as well. i'd like to very quickly share my screen again to kind of give you a look ahead to our next session and for which i've already shared the eventbrite link. This is about party patriot activist research which is going to be presented by Professor Jenny pick a real and Professor of environmental geography at the University of Sheffield in the UK. and her practice as research links activism with participatory research paradigms so that's something that's going to be. quite interesting, we were very different from today's session but still very interesting in terms of you know, collaboration and obviously participate every word. And the other thing that I would like to share very quickly and is all of the different links of where you can check up more. And off the practices research network, you can subscribe to the recordings on the YouTube channel on the bus bro channel and actually now i'm also on spotify and apple podcast. And you can obviously check out the the research website and, if you would like to get in touch with me. My email address is there as well, so I would like to say thank you very much, everybody for having been here for asking the questions is always exciting to see. newcomers and new people, and I hope to see you again next time so again Monica Thank you so much, I really appreciate that and I look forward to more.

Monica Sassatelli: 54:14

Thank you, Nicole, and everybody.