In this podcast, Dr Nicole Brown talks to Dr Hakan Ergül about Practice As Research.
Dr Hakan Ergül is a Lecturer in Media Studies in the UCL Knowledge Lab of the Department of Culture, Communication & Media at IOE, UCL's Faculty of Education and Society. Hakan received his PhD in 2006 from the Graduate School of International Cultural Studies, Tohoku University, Japan, with my 5-years ethnographic inquiry on Japanese television production.
Hakan's short stories have appeared in a number of literary journals, and he is the author of Dedicated to Chrysanthemum (in TR: Krizanteme Adanmis, 2003) and Where Do the Noises Come From? (TR: Sesler Nereden Geliyor? 2009), anthology of short stories. His most recent books include Popularizing Japanese TV (author, Routledge 2019) and Universities in the Neoliberal Era (co-editor, Palgrave 2017).
Hakan's current research examines the role of traditional and digital communication technologies in everyday life of vulnerable groups, including children, refugees, and urban poor from ethnographic perspective.
In this podcast, Dr Nicole Brown talks to Dr Hakan Ergül about Practice As Research.
Dr Hakan Ergül is a Lecturer in Media Studies in the UCL Knowledge Lab of the Department of Culture, Communication & Media at IOE, UCL's Faculty of Education and Society. Hakan received his PhD in 2006 from the Graduate School of International Cultural Studies, Tohoku University, Japan, with my 5-years ethnographic inquiry on Japanese television production.
Hakan's short stories have appeared in a number of literary journals, and he is the author of Dedicated to Chrysanthemum (in TR: Krizanteme Adanmis, 2003) and Where Do the Noises Come From? (TR: Sesler Nereden Geliyor? 2009), anthology of short stories. His most recent books include Popularizing Japanese TV (author, Routledge 2019) and Universities in the Neoliberal Era (co-editor, Palgrave 2017).
Hakan's current research examines the role of traditional and digital communication technologies in everyday life of vulnerable groups, including children, refugees, and urban poor from ethnographic perspective.
hello, and welcome to this week's in conversation and i'm really excited to have with me yet another interesting guests talking about practice as research. And i'm really looking forward to all of these conversations all of the time now so today i've got with me a colleague from indiana University College, London and i'd like you to introduce hacking to you.
Hakan Ergül:hi Thank you so much, the quote for the mighty before this interview, first of all, yes i'm harken argued i'm a lecturer in the digital media ma program in the critical studies route. In cultural communication and media department unlimited scholar I think that's, all I can Skype myself for doing the demographic work you're in the last 20 years about different topics different communities different countries yeah Thank you so much.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much, and then the interesting thing is that, I mean obviously your your your work on the digital media program is also requiring quite a lot of practice work, and you know. Cuts into that idea of practice research but in your own work, and you also writing fiction and and that's something that I would like to also kind of bring in here so could you talk a little bit about your your practice and as fiction writer.
Hakan Ergül:Right sure well yeah this is exactly how I actually encountered practices research which I didn't know that I was doing that, until I found a name to put a title on it. You know the kind of work that i've been doing this i'd be writing short stories and during the last 20 years or even more than that, and so this is sort of paranormal. activity that goes together with my academic work and, at the very beginning, I was trying to keep these two things, separate from each other as much as possible, as you can imagine, because of the conventions within the academic field that I was working in. the midst of objectivity and all kinds of things at the very beginning, so I come from a very political economy tradition that I gradually moved to anthropology ethnography in the field in a very natural way, not through training, but again, because the questions that I was dealing with. about the society about the culture, about the Community that i'm interested in, you know, I was not able to answer them with the framework that I carry with me, so I needed to approach it from the community's. sort of way of understanding of the whatever the phenomenon i'm interested in, and this is how I found that actually my creative writing can be quite sort of supportive rather than you know sort of. impacting negatively my academic work and that's how everything started between the practices research but still. I do not, I did not know again until very recently that actually that type of creative work can be you know quite useful for the academic analysis I could immediately sorts of them conducting yeah.
Nicole Brown:So when you're saying that if you've kind of you know, like more recently engaged with that field of practice as research how. How do you define I mean it sounds like you're still in the process of defining your work within that. You know sort of spread and field, you know how if I was to ask you what, what is your research work and, what is your work as a practitioner, how would you try to define that How would you describe that.
Hakan Ergül:yeah, I think, from my perspective, from the perspective of the kind of work that i'm doing I think practices research through first more sort of a field of investigation that. explores the potential of creative what artistic more performative ways of sort of doing social inquiry, so in my case in my specific research area that's more about the creative writing creative narratives that I produce or my participants produce in the field that is. To my knowledge, twice if you're not possible to inquire in any other more conventional ways methodological ways, so in that sense the art. Is a sort of you know, the interviews into my view is an action, so when I talk about our third expressive ways or preferred utility i'm not talking about. instrumentals using arts as a sort of source of knowledge they can provide us what other methods cannot it's more about you know amy to produce something artistic. and loving to art to tell us the responses to the questions that we are posing in the field, for instance in the in the in the case of. Media production, I was doing a production ethnography doing my PhD in Japan, looking at the media professionals perspective of the kind of TV genres that they are producing themselves. And exactly simultaneously in that period of time, I was writing short stories about what i'm observing in the field so. Again, as i've mentioned at the very beginning, I was quite. intimidated by the how close these two writings are getting to each other, my writings in the cultural studies as an anthropologist is that it's not preferred. And my writing as a creative writer, or whatever that you call as a sort of personal keeps the journal of the field, but then I realized that actually. i'm sort of by eliminating this artistic creative part i'm taking a probably the most powerful. parts of my observations from the field, and this is creating much more artificial results than not, but when I bring them close to each other when I bring some quotations from my journals. Without saying that this is scientific I didn't even use that word during that period, but I just quoted by saying that there is no any other way. That I can mention this other than this creative piece of paragraph, for instance, and then they started to have a dialogue, these two kinds of different texts started in a battle between each other. And then I felt much more confident the result when I look at it was exactly what I wanted to say, with a PhD thesis It took some time to convince my supervisors at the time.
Nicole Brown:So anyway you've already kind of hinted at some of the advantages and drawbacks and some of the challenges and the benefits that we are. encountering with that kind of research that we're doing with that practice as research approach, and do you want to kind of tease out a few more sort of you know, like more. more direct and points from your own experience, and what do you think are the kind of the challenges of practice as research.
Hakan Ergül:I think one of the fundamental and cross cutting challenge that many people doing the similar kind of work that I do that you do and other colleagues in the field of practice research to is the recognition. Within the academic field that has implications on every aspect, including publications, including teaching bringing that experience into the teaching, for instance, is also another challenge. You need to find a modality, to introduce that into your curriculum at your syllabus but in terms of the publications and academic framework, I think you all know that it's extremely difficult to. challenge the very conventional traditional structuring of the establishment of academia and then convince a critical number of people that well actually what we are doing as an artistic expressive way. of socially in quietly can be extremely useful for our sort of questions that you pose about the communities, about the society about the whatever the issues injustice. That we are dealing with me talking about injustice, the I can just you know talking about that probably is an example of why it's sometimes fundamental and very often the very, the only way. to explore to introduce that practices research into the social inquiry, we were doing with our colleagues from legitimate university. Digital storytelling utterly a kind of a workshop in moral code, with the refugees coming from Syria coming from Yemen Central Africa and. You know Center guide all kinds of countries bordering or like distant from Morocco vivre concentrating and trying to understand their stories on the on the journal. Since they fled from the war until they arrived, where there is Robert in the capital of the city and trying to give them a sort of. Very simple digital platform to let them know that their own story. So that there is no journalists, there is no academic as a mediator, but they it's themselves it's their story. it's their creative work in a way, and via realized after a couple of days of working together in a story circle which is quite a healing really interesting. Co creative process that artistic ways of expressions This includes music, this includes poems This includes, sometimes in complete sentences, but very metaphorical way of. explaining the stories are video from the only way for people to face their traumas. Rather than narrating what exactly happened in a very sequential very chronological way, and they were telling us in an indirect but very powerful way. What they've gone through what that journey meant for them and what kind of emotional traces left behind on their psychology on their bodies in their memories and sometimes a video from the artist, the best way. To deal with it it's a it's a healing process in its end itself, but so extremely powerful source of insights for the researchers as well, so yeah I mean, but then, when it comes to publishing and accounts. like this. I think it and or applying for funding to accommodate a research like that, with the collaborative of the people, then I think it's a quite a complicated process, I must say.
Nicole Brown:I agree, I mean, I think, from from my point of view, and you know the kind of things that you were saying is the art. is like that therapeutic elemental for the participants and for the researchers to kind of get to understanding, but at the same time it's also when you're able to share a short story or a poem or you know any kind of like you said. A song or something actually the audience who's who you are disseminating to is also emotionally connecting to the topic. And so I do think like you say you know the power of the arts, that there is something there that you know kind of helps people make an emotional connection. And even if you don't like something you know you go into a gallery you see a pollock painting and Apollo painting is something that's that's incredibly. sort of you know, like my mighty thing you know either you love it or you hate it because you know. A lot of people say well you know, a kindergarten child could have done that, and and I can see where people come from so but but still. Even though they don't like that pollock painting, they still have god's some kind of an emotional connection to it. So I generally agree with you on the principles of using the US based approaches and that but, like you say trying to convince somebody that that painting. That poem that song is research is really, really difficult, how do you in your own work when you when you are doing the creative writing. How do you make that distinction between Oh, this is creative writing for the creative writing purposes, and this is creative writing for research purposes, how do you do distinguish that in your own practice.
Hakan Ergül:Right well that's a great question and you let me also think about that as well retrospectively, well, I think. In my case it's quite a natural interconnected process because Ben i'm in the field i'm in the field for weeks for months. And i'm really literally in the field, so I go from point A to Point B and then conduct my interviews observe people try to make sense of what i'm observing and that's also the period that is extremely sort of stimulating. You know, participating, so I also take my notes and my field knows, which is the most reliable software that I must say to you know the paper and pen. it's quite messy. And, which was a frustration at the beginning, for me, I think I was just questioning and criticizing myself, I think I just don't know how to reorganize my work with an introduction, with the. sort of cluster of data, so I should be right, my more emotional observations here, but the more physical. environment should be falling under this, but then I realized that it actually this mess. it's this all interconnectedness intertwined things that is they're seemingly different, but so much connected to each other. This is also referring to here in my sort of creative writing if you like, they are. No longer trying to separate them from each other i'm just trying to draw the insights from both simultaneously and if I cannot find a way. To express differently, I just quote from the field journal straight ahead, saying that this was taken as a note on that date in that circumstances, and this is how I felt in that moment and. That that sentence that observation that paragraph can be very sort of in terms of genre very like literature, rather than can be like a more sort of. free flow of mind, or like the you know the conscious, rather than a very structured and analytical keys, but still I think that's the way it's supposed to be I no longer really trying to differentiate the two and i'm becoming more sort of refused by the journals, of course.
Nicole Brown:And can I just ask you when when you talk about this kind of practices and the journaling and. I mean, by the way, i'd be really interested in seeing you know, a couple of pages of your children are now because that's another thing that a lot of people are you know sort of talking about is like keeping journals. But we don't tend to share them much so we don't necessarily see the mystic process and what we see is somebody talking about keeping a journal, and then we see the slide presentation. In the publication and actually that the messiness of that process totally disappears so it'd be really interesting to see that as well.
Hakan Ergül:See, I also have a, you know as an another element into the journal The sketches. Yes, of the the faces in front of me the environment that i'm into because I think this is much more telling semantically than any photo. That you can take passively when you sketch things delight field and i'm trying to teach you or like discuss about it my students in the methodology courses as well. Your emphasis the parts that for you is the you know, the most important building the photograph everything is in this, you know the same level, you know. There are millions of semiotic signs that are talking to you in the same kind of weight in them, but may you sketch the environment just doesn't matter how realistic. Realistic whatever it is you just underline you recreated and I think this 3D sort of. creates much more insightful process and the link your emotions affect side of it with what you're observing that I think this is extremely powerful and important for any any person doing social inquiry.
Nicole Brown:So when you when you saying that you kind of you know, like picking out the things that are important to you in a relevant to you doesn't that, in a way. Obviously it generates new kinds of knowledge, because you're in the field you're in the moment you're in that practice you're doing that research as practice and i'm playing devil's advocate here. But isn't that. isn't that, in a way skewing. The what you see.
Hakan Ergül:Absolutely. However, in a qualitative inquiry that I so much believe that on this someone the researcher living in a city so friendly world that only refers to itself. Whatever I see is the part of the general more broader let's say the social context. So somebody else can see something else and that's also the part of that social reality, so there are means if the you know from constructed is for us to a point of view, if this reality outside is being multifaceted. And the created by the discourses observations insights perspectives down i'm only claiming that this is one part of it. There are many other perspectives into that i'm not even thinking about being either you know even close to the objective at all i'm trying to be much more subjective, but I do know that the subjectivity is a shared one.
Nicole Brown:I think I mean that's that's a really good way of kind of seeing it and I think that's probably because a lot of people that are involved in practitioner inquiries or practice based inquiries. They always wondering, you know how much Am I shaping what's happening and actually I think it's a more honest approach because. automatically as soon as you engage in an interview situation, whoever is in front of you, you are shaping their views, by the way you behave, by the way you read out the question by by any you know by by even how. The room is set up, so we cannot assume that a not an ordinary traditional conventional interview setting is a vacuum it's also an interaction and engagement there. And I think you know our process by actually saying you know what I am in the moment I know that i'm in the moment and here is how i'm dealing with is probably more honest because of the level of transparency that's required.
Hakan Ergül:it's extremely important that you're mentioning and I couldn't agree more about that about the honesty. But at the end of the day, the insights that you generate your writing your analysis is not less reliable either. So you can be both you can be very honest very subjective, but just underlining that this is my perspective of what I see and somebody else can see differently, and I think I had that kind of attempt. In the first page of my methodology, I remember in my PhD, for instance, that I felt an urge to write it, so I took a kind of risk that I don't suggest now the PhD candidates data series. But i've written that methodology chapter with reference to, of course, the you know all kinds of methods and stuff like that the semi structured interviews. And observations all the definitions very moment methodology chapter, but I this this first front page mentioning that but you're going to be seeing the remainder of the methodology chapter is there, also because of the sense of security. Lots of interviews that I called or named them as semi structured interview we're just informal chat that was certainly. Honesty, but they were not less informative they were not less eliminated at all. But there is this urge that make people that this comes back to your question about what are the challenges, you know that is being you know that is being felt in the field is this this this this. Imposing field from the traditions to conventions that do not want to see anything that is divergent that's different than itself dead centered guys always follow you. When you're writing something and try to bring you back to the conventional way of writing I think that's something that we all need to face at one point if you're doing doing some kind of access research in the field yeah.
Nicole Brown:There is that is that the hope for the future, as to how the practice as research develops as a field and also how your own practice as research will develop.
Hakan Ergül:I think it's going to be you're going to see a you know, a much stronger emergence of. A kind of the field of practices research in the future and the devil be the digital. As a you know the aspect of that playing a role as well, because you know all the interactions in the digital media. Almost all our interactive so blurring the boundaries between users producers creators co creators, who produced the any genre for the first time, so it's very difficult to trace the origin of it so things become much more creative. And, in a way, much more we also see the activation see from the users as well, their own creativity their own ways of expression their feelings as well, I think it's going to be almost. inevitable journey in the future to bring that practices is such as an aspect is fundamental for any kind of social inquiry.
Nicole Brown:that's really exciting, I look forward to that kind of vision of yours and that's something that I. i'm signing up for straightaway, because I do think that I agree with you, but I do think that there is some scope of kind of you know, like allowing more agency. Obviously, as researchers in the in that practice as research environment, we would still have duty of care, we were still makes you need to make sure that you know that. Anyone who's part of the research doesn't come to any harm or any any kind of difficulties because those people aren't necessarily. experienced in doing research so they may not necessarily know what they're letting them into themselves info but, ultimately, allowing the scope to kind of like use a Co create and generate things together, I think that that sounds like a really nice view.
Hakan Ergül:I hope that happens, and I really do believe that sort of also I see more sort of signs of it as well, I mean looking at the initiative that you've created and you're leading. Because this is amazing, and then looking at the health of people really wholeheartedly embraced. That initiative and that are you know many people like minded people doing similar kind of thing as well, so I think we're going to see more and more in the future similar kind of work. One more thing that, if I might say about the you know the ethnography and then the sort of how this is the interdependencies usage, I just wanted to mention that at one point. You know it's only about my personal observations about what I read in the academic journals done in the field of media studies, with a little graphic method. I see that you know same time kind of tendency which I think is going to disappear in the future, but that's not the case at the moment that people are feeling themselves to. employ more and more ethnographic protocols, if you like, in their field, you know again going back to this terminology semi structured interview. With 15 people participant observation 14 weeks So you see a same danger that ethnography was criticizing at the beginning, but now trying to. almost like getting into the same dangerous flow and following much more pessimistic and understanding of the novel, which is, I think. against it, so, in essence, at the very beginning, I think it's not if it's not about finding a concrete single answer it's about asking questions. it's about finding potential other answers as well without really you know, limiting it reducing into a single answer, so I think the art, I mean is the most powerful way to ask questions in that sense.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much, thank you very much for for having been here today, as always it's been a great great pleasure to to talk to you about your work. And I do hope that we're going to be able to catch up on another occasion and talk a little bit more about ethics as well. The ethics of you know of involving participants of of doing this art based representations or I do hope that we're able to connect them and again at some point in the future. But for now and i'd like to say thank you on behalf of the network and and yeah anyone who's been listening in please do check out the other end conversations as well.
Hakan Ergül:Thank you so much for having me, it was a pleasure talking to you and forward for the future conversations to.
Nicole Brown:Thank you.