In this podcast, Dr Nicole Brown talks to Dr Helen Ross about Practice As Research.
Dr Helen Ross is a fully qualified Special Educational Needs Coordinator (SENCo) and alongside providing support to other professionals and undertaking research, she currently works part time as a SEN teacher in a mainstream school. Helen is also Chair of the Wiltshire Dyslexia Association, where she supports the running of events, provides expert advice on pedagogy and contributes to the Association social media networks. She has recently become a Trustee of the British Dyslexia Association.
For more information about her work and her achievements, check out her web site.
In this podcast, Dr Nicole Brown talks to Dr Helen Ross about Practice As Research.
Dr Helen Ross is a fully qualified Special Educational Needs Coordinator (SENCo) and alongside providing support to other professionals and undertaking research, she currently works part time as a SEN teacher in a mainstream school. Helen is also Chair of the Wiltshire Dyslexia Association, where she supports the running of events, provides expert advice on pedagogy and contributes to the Association social media networks. She has recently become a Trustee of the British Dyslexia Association.
For more information about her work and her achievements, check out her web site.
buttered.
Helen Ross:toast oh good.
Nicole Brown:Okay, good and Hello and good afternoon good morning wherever you are in the world to our latest installment of the in conversation podcast. And today, I have got with me a researcher practitioner, who is doing again something slightly different to all of my other conversation or partner so i'm really excited to. To have a different view again and as we're going to be talking about practice as research so Helen, and this is Helen rush everybody and Helen would you like to introduce yourself.
Helen Ross:hi my name is Alan Ross i'm a researcher i'm currently in a school building, partly through different meeting, so there might be a little bit of background noise i'm stealing a staff room and people are being very quiet. I am, I am a dyslexia specialist so i'm I researched, just like here I look at how kids do the classroom with dyslexia how teachers do supporting kids with dyslexia in the classroom and. i'm a lucky so and so because I get to talk to people and get paid for it and will totally not useable differences to kids journey so i'm a very lucky sold.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much, thank you very much for this introduction so let's let's go straight into our conversation, how do you define or describe your work, and you know the kind of the practice as as research that you are doing.
Helen Ross:Well that's funny a minute i'm actually doing some research with a computer display educational attack and then, so I get to the teaching I do actually can also be part of the sort of journey. That I used to research i've seen ever use research without asking children about it, you know, is it alright, if I use this and you get parental consent, but. Literally the teaching that the interactions I have my kids what they find tricky to find easy how we can help them, that is my research and. And i'm lucky that i've got segues me because i'm a teacher and i've got that kind of segue into different research settings which is really cool. Because i'm dyslexic as well, so if the kid says they find some interesting yeah I totally get that like reading. there's a really massive thing at the moment, and one of my research bug bears and my teaching bugbears is, we have to like teach children, they must love reading i'm like. Come on, you don't tell kids they've got to love hockey or like algebra algebra but you're not forcing a love of something that they find tricky on them say reading. Where you've told you've got to love it does my head in you gotta be able to do it, not the same, so I think part of my kind of. Research is bad, this is all about lived experience and and I live that same hating reading thing so many of massage my year sevens I live on the same journey, ladies really tricky.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much, I mean I I understand the kind of the practitioner research that you're doing. And I mean the part that, for me, is really interesting is because you know that it's quite similar to what I have always been doing when I was still a secondary school teacher and that you are teaching and researching your own practice at the same time and. You know you're you're building on that, but but that that comes with huge difficulties doesn't it. What are the challenges that you identify.
Helen Ross:I think I think there's a big one, and. You don't include stuff without by mistake inadvertently i'm. Like projects i'm doing a moment i'm working with i'm actually I am I can some kids I teach as well, but I. respect his parents suspected the kids i'm like are you sure you want to do it and then and so it's making sure that you're not kind of taken the liberty, with what you do. Because I really matters like it matters so much that you you're not disrespecting your your students and their journeys and you don't want to make something public yeah inadvertently. And I I do I do a research project so with. Swansea uni and it's about climate change, but because I were I mean I work at the minute stonehenge scored as well by stonehenge bizarrely enough for anybody. And we haven't been the project in my school because I think there's a conflict a potential conflict of interest if i'm researching it I don't want to do it in my own in. Despite the fun the program's FAB and I love my school my school is such a lovely lovely place to work out but it's just two things that I just I don't. I don't mix those two and whether that's right or wrong, I don't know baseball i'm comfortable with, and I think it's again it's ethics it's not inadvertently taken a liberty and. And being respectful of other people's privacy journeys professionalism yeah that's my real you gotta be really careful with that.
Nicole Brown:When you're comparing the kind of the two different and research settings the one where you're saying you're kind of it's more like a conventional traditional research and then the other one where you're doing practitioner research. And do you experience any kind of differences as to how that research is viewed or valued or evaluated.
Helen Ross:yeah definitely my I call i'm allowed to say it, because i'm a qualitative research primarily buddy one physics quantum people aren't allowed to say that it's fine, I can say, because I do it, but I think. Because so much of the research paradigm, where within at the moment, particularly under the current like governmental. flavor is this sort of positive is numbers numbers numbers quantitative we've got to have like big data and and. That kind of annoying it's really important to have big data, because it tells you transit predicts things, but you also need. The smallest scale really in depth meaty kind of getting to grips with people's journeys, how does the big data make people feel, how does it actually impact on each individual, and I think, because I do the kind of warm fuzzy How does it impact on people. People don't necessarily give it the same level of credence because it's a smaller scale, but it's you measuring different things, and people that have done in a ppa they've gone the kind of correct way through and ended up in government don't pee pee or whatever they don't accept. Different flavors of success and information from what they've decided within their positive is quite yet it's quite patriarchal kind of traditional framework they don't accept it as data they'd like is anecdotal and that really annoys me because. it's all data is just telling you different things different metrics different purposes different uses, but equally important.
Nicole Brown:I agree with you, and you know this is this is you preaching to the converted already I totally agree with you on this one. And it's just interesting for me to kind of hear you know how in different disciplines practitioner research may be viewed in different ways, so I always get the feeling that, within the setting people recognize it, as you know, this is proper research discounts, this is valuable. This is important. So when you're doing educational practice based research or practice as research in an educational setting. Other teachers will will will value it and will will take from it, what what you know, whatever the recommendations or strengths are, but if you then get somebody else from a different discipline reading that is almost like this is not quite valued in the same way.
Helen Ross:notice the obsession with our cities in a randomized control trials, they have a place have a purpose, but when you've got a kid here at home. homeless wobbly and they haven't had breakfast and they've missed the bus and they've lost the kids get back home like. Using big data doesn't predict, their experience of the school day talked like if you talk to a person you get what they do and you can't predict you can't predict your son has not breakfast or home is terribly wobbly or home is amazing, but kids got the wrong side of bed you can't. and teachers gather anything that's why i've i've graduated with my PhD in 2017 so for the last 75 years i've managed to stay in the classroom because that journey map as teachers, we use my. Various people that do big day or like people are purely based at uni haven't got a clue what goes on in a classroom with your night on a Friday afternoon when it's windy. Like. I know. it's really hard it matters. It matters that people listen to people that do the job, because otherwise on. Paper based policies are totally disconnected from what people need to do it's why I became a teacher in the first place and got really struggling with the government, because I worked in Barnsley for many years. And you know the ambient kind of literacy level in Barnsley 10 years ago was national curriculum level, four and five at the time, which was like what about 11 year old level. And then you've got ideas and government saying will teach children Shakespeare, and in a way yeah Okay, I get it give them give them cultural capital work with their own cultural. let's get them reading first and functionally illiterate, so that they can do life and, once you can do that. Then you get into the reading of shapes but i'm not i'm not saying don't work on Shakespeare type stuff because that again would be really snobby and wrong but. People need to be able to do vital skills and you've got a safe now where we might get ad hominem people who haven't lived journey and government and he went to private schools with tank is in their class. haven't got a clue what it is to teach 25 kids and mining town where the job prospects and nothing like shut up listen to people that did job just makes me really cool.
Nicole Brown:No, I totally understand where you're coming from and yeah and, in many ways you've kind of already touched upon kind of the benefits of practice as research. That is kind of close to closer to to the ground and it's always like a grassroots. way of doing research. And so yeah.
Helen Ross:I think you need both you need people that do big data that come in and kind of have an external view because they have a really valid wait what's my perspective. It needs to match from both levels you can't change structures, you can't keep such as valid useful functioning dynamic if you don't listen to people that are within the structures, you need both. i'm just passionate believer of just actually listening to people and respecting them. I.
Nicole Brown:totally agree with you, so, can I just. Ask when when you're talking about your practice as research. And the kind of the work that you do within the context of practice research. Is there any particular kind of body of literature that you use to to to gauge your work or to evaluate your own work or to define your own work, perhaps.
Helen Ross:i'm aboard your board. it's weird I did to manifest agrees mechanical engineering quite hitting stuff. And it was fun like breaking stuff genuinely but I moved over towards sort of more been in Barnsley towards education as well, I never really engaged with like piaget little bit of all who was it just. sounds of proximal development I got ski I.
Nicole Brown:didn't go to be yes any kind of.
Helen Ross:Education isn't just seemed a bit too small for me so i've always hoped mounted the sociological. theoretical framework said borge we're really trying to make is you're in it you're subject to you produce it, because education does like it produces very, very narrow version of people, essentially, and because we've got these kind of. structures that produce, you must do five stars to see or. Boston wherever everyone's gotta be academic heaven forbid you want to be a plumber cuz. Oh, my goodness awesome good enough like save which every times for me and i've. made my own say little theoretical framework you've probably seen like it was based on a light fitting that I got him work is that I saw. And then i've kind of use that to my own understanding of the social as well that's absolutely based on the readings i've done. from Georgia and just taking a little bit further, but we all do, that same way you kind of read stuff and go Oh, I like it, but. um but yeah so, but the nice thing about Voyager and that kind of a man's patriots framework is it's about justice and it's about giving people empowering people yes back listening.
Nicole Brown:yeah I think you I, I can see where you're coming from I mean a lot of the times, and the reason i'm asking is a lot of the times, people in. Educational settings tend to draw on churn you know with the reflective practitioner and and and his idea of. Research reflection in action and reflection on action, and you know is basically kind of the first step towards defining what what makes research, but then. The question is what where's the difference between the reflection and the research is there a difference does there have to be a difference, I don't even do. That.
Helen Ross:I mean to say that's not that different from like images and kind of ontology epistemology like. because she was he objectifying this. I haven't got enough caffeine or bloody my caffeine stream was funny, but I think it's about. it's that cyclical thing where and it applies to the special education on it's like well you kind of assess what's going on, take snapshot look at it you've internalized staff and then you. You do apply, because if a kid that's to me I don't want to stand out in. assessing our last week, as my job I don't want to stand out as a dyslexic kid because it's embarrassing, why would I use computer when on the only kid in it. So i'm not going to then say every child who has dyslexia has to use a computer in class as a standard like. Because I know that some of the kids I teach would be mortified by doing that, so my professional practice. is then I take that under my research as well, because I know from doing research in a classroom i'm not going to be like. sit next to the device that can really tie your my body for this lesson because that's just that's not right, is it you don't want to embarrass. or make somebody feel small and I think being having me in a classroom teacher for like a bajillion years. Has him influence how I do research with that and also talking to the kids when you do talk one to one with a kid carefully discreetly sensitively. And they're telling you know my teachers don't embarrass me well, that of course that reflects my practice because i'm like. i've got a seven in front of me last thing in the afternoon i'm not gonna be like Hello dyslexic child how's your reading today now read on spices it's not fair it's just it's the ethical respectful and depending of life, surely not just research like. As my my little tear on Saturday is asked to do, she said as a two year old is isn't broken my child by teaching where he he but. it's really not kind it's not respectful to belittle somebody and that underpins every methodology classroom practice I do yeah hopefully hopefully get it right to just treat people properly.
Nicole Brown:Do you sometimes feel that when you are this practitioner researcher and you're playing these. Two or three different roles in that one situation you sometimes feel that you have to push the researcher into the bottom drawer and and be teacher consultant advisor supporter first.
Helen Ross:yeah yeah it depends, who i'm working with a thing and. If i'm working with a family and it's about their child in that particular setting now you address what ever they need you to address and. yeah absolutely um. Because again you're you're dealing with people we're not dealing with big data or when you're dealing with an individual family or an individual setting. You can kind of have an idea of trends, you can have an overview of what things might do will be ordinary. People are numbers in it like. You have to be adaptable and flexible in it. i'm like a broken record it's respect turned to my mother and or aretha Franklin like it's it's just you've got to treat people properly and individually and listen. To two ears one mouth use them in proportion that's. Yes, one more thing.
Nicole Brown:Yes, no, I totally understand that, can I just ask you how would you like to see the field of practice as research develop as a field, but also for your own practice as research, how do you how do you think that you're going to develop your own practice as research.
Helen Ross:I think, in general, why would like is the government's actually have created now they've run all these consultations as an SDN consultation recently been done. And they say they listen to scores this say they listened practitioners, but it genuinely doesn't feel like they do, the reason I did a PhD 10 years ago is because, when I was reading stuff while I was in Barnsley. was like how do these people have got a PhD they've got Dr in front of them i'm going to get me one of them, because they're now listen to me, and sadly. that's still the impression I have you know people shouldn't treat me different because i've got a PhD because i'm still a wali at times it's cheap and. But it has opened doors that should have been opened by me having been a saint. or me having taught in a classroom for 10 years because classroom teachers know their craft children know their journeys. But the powers that be, for whatever reason, well that's a different argument, the powers that be, and those who hold the. The capacity to rewrite policies we do define policy somehow just won't seem to listen so that's what I want the research is practices that we have big data we have kind of external experts, because it matters. But Charlie well listen to people doing the job, and I think then that comes partly, as I say what I said before, I stayed in the classroom as long as I can. I finished in two weeks at school because i'm human and icons of every and i'm knackered and for myself, I would like is to keep working with kids and keep Tutoring. And so that at least i'm working with kids live in the journey and and I just want to keep showing the government. Against House of Lords, in a few weeks, with my role is interested in the British dislikes are association. Which is a massive privilege House of Lords thing, whether we met in a holiday inn and pub car park I don't care if people and whatever, that is, the people that matter, and so i'm lucky that i've got the air of people that. make policy and that's a mental privileged i'm really grateful for, and I just want to keep my hand, and with that, I think, just keep keep rattling cages respectfully and calmly and generally as politely as I can. have my moments, but yeah that's what i'd like for me and then hopefully that then would fit into the whole idea if you listen to people that are doing the job touching word. that's that's the ideal.
Nicole Brown:Thank you, I think you know when you said that you feel you know that people were kind of treating differently treating you differently to. You know, read doctorate and after doctorate. That kind of again goes back to probably the value of practice as research in a way, because. As a practitioner you didn't count, but, as somebody with a. With a doctorate you certainly an academic and suddenly you do count.
Helen Ross:yeah it's ridiculous there's no because i've ended up the tree it doesn't make me clever just means i'm a stubborn burger and I was trying to i'm going to get a PhD yes. Of course i'm clever but i'm also tenacious and stubborn know is a tenacious stubborn Sankoh and i'm a tenacious and 17 those quality quality actually. haven't changed to see and I taught, while I was doing my PhD as well, I thought at the time I didn't get funding and I was like yeah but actually 2020 hindsight kept me in the classroom so. It I wasn't any different as a teacher yeah as a person, just for having a doctorate bit poor but. It shouldn't it shouldn't make people treat you different in my husband finds the same Mr Dr Ross is also a doctorate person who works at uni and he says academics people engage with him differently us like profession is running participation and he. He says it's easier to engage with some of the kind of more academic boards, because they treat him. Because he has that credence that that's. Letters after his name, yes. It just meant he did mass spectroscopy for an awful lot of his life for three years, I didn't really understand spirit, it was chemistry it doesn't mean he's any better, as a person, it just means he studied a bit longer and it's still being worked out on it. But it's interesting dropping work differently.
Nicole Brown:Yes, yeah no it's just interesting that that seems to be kind of one of one of the things that a lot of people struggle when they're doing practices, research, I mean the ethical. dilemmas that we are facing the different hats that we wear in that same situation all of those things seem to. You know bb irrespective of disciplinary conventions and then like you say there is this added thing that. Actually, the practitioner knowledge is secondary to the scholarly academic knowledge and that's and that's a shame in many ways, because. it's again it's like like you were saying at the beginning that the difference between qualitative and quantitative work. is not that you know that they're not valuable they're just valuable in different ways, and for me practitioner knowledge and scholarly knowledge is again is just a different quality of knowledge it doesn't mean that one is better quality than the other.
Helen Ross:And I think it's something like education, a practitioner knowledge is your academic knowledge, I want to see things like I didn't I didn't know what epistemology and ontology was because I did engineering any hit stuff you don't touch on that, but like. If. it's the latter is the letters after my name, because if I drag the later books, I could have still learned all the philosophy stuff. That I do now is the letters after my name that makes the difference or before man me it's killing myself doctor and doctor spells josh no load of rubbish that in British English draws. doesn't mean i'm any better it just means i've got a different set of qualifications now charter teachers there's the. rub it on the child college of teaching in the UK, the minute the level of professional knowledge. professional development that people have to do that's my colleagues are doing the path by the minute phenomenal they're amazing they did it really in depth and they're gonna be charged teachers now in a lot of professions been charged with brilliant it's really high end. That I can I speak not I don't mind my colleagues have a contract tell you respect my colleagues or. they'll still not get the same doors opened, and as the Charter teachers i've just because it says, Dr in front of my name, and that is absolutely disgraceful. it's disgraceful because, to be a teacher is meeting to be an accomplished teacher if you're, on the other, page barn you are an accomplished teacher.
Nicole Brown:yeah I agree with you, I agree with you and I. Think.
Helen Ross:This is cathartic.
Nicole Brown:that's good. But you know, in many ways, for me, this is what i'm trying to do with the practices. research network is. kind of show to people actually you know, there is something here that that is valuable that's important that's relevant in so many different ways. And the rest is not the end, or because, like you said, we still need quantitative work we're still need you know, like conventional you know random randomized control trials all the rest of it, but actually yes, not to dismiss the what the kind of work that people like us.
Helen Ross:For sure absolutely exactly that, and I think I don't know I just sent me just kid needs to keep rattling cages and. stuff like i'm i'm actively not in a uni like I don't really want to be a unique academic because I don't get to do what I like when I like it's just quite excited it's terrifying because to say my last salaries in six weeks, but like. I can do what I like when I like, and I think what's really important for people that are Indies and people who are practitioners recent research practitioners and stuff like this the ncaa is. And it's not the TV show the National Coalition of independent scholars that's really important, because a lot of people that do that are our research participants practitioners they doing the job but they're also kind of geek in it as well in a good way and then. I think organizations that. scholarly organizations that are not like university ones are really important. In unions, you know teaching unions and if you're a nurse, like the nurse nursing and midwifery count, so I think these I remember, but, like all the psychology societies, I think these. Big professional organizations are really an important link between the corner of policy theoretical academic stuff and then doing the the role as well, and my dad does a lot of interviewing for the institute mechanical engineers and he's like. He a lot of the stuff he does is Bridget and kind of why people are applying research to their proper engineering staff and that there's no reason why other other jobs can't do any jobs professions fields can't do that I just think we need to chat about it a bit more a lot more politely.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much, well, thank you very much Helen it's been really, really nice talking to you, is it was really interesting. And i'm really surprised how quickly these conversations go. And it's been great to have you on here, and then I would like to say thank you very much. You know, for for talking to us about your definition of practice as research and i'm sure we'll hear more of and about your work in due course as well.
Helen Ross:cool thanks for having me it's been lovely really appreciate that.
Nicole Brown:Thank you.