In this podcast, Dr Nicole Brown talks to Dr Margaret E. Collins about Practice As Research.
Margaret E. Collins is an award winning composer whose recent focus has been the integration of non-western instruments into ensembles with western orchestral instruments. Meg earned a PhD in Music composition form Trinity College Dublin, Ireland, for her dissertation “Melting the Boundaries: The integration of ethnic instruments into western art music.” She composed eight works featuring seven different ethnic instruments: the Chinese xiao, the Native American flute, the Persian tar, the Persian santoor, the Irish uilleann pipes, and Irish tin whistles. Her song for treble chorus, flute and piano, "maggie and milly and molly and may," was awarded First Prize in the Berkshire Children's Chorus Composition Competition.
For more information about her work and achievements, check out her web site.
In this podcast, Dr Nicole Brown talks to Dr Margaret E. Collins about Practice As Research.
Margaret E. Collins is an award winning composer whose recent focus has been the integration of non-western instruments into ensembles with western orchestral instruments. Meg earned a PhD in Music composition form Trinity College Dublin, Ireland, for her dissertation “Melting the Boundaries: The integration of ethnic instruments into western art music.” She composed eight works featuring seven different ethnic instruments: the Chinese xiao, the Native American flute, the Persian tar, the Persian santoor, the Irish uilleann pipes, and Irish tin whistles. Her song for treble chorus, flute and piano, "maggie and milly and molly and may," was awarded First Prize in the Berkshire Children's Chorus Composition Competition.
For more information about her work and achievements, check out her web site.
Putting them.
Nicole Brown:hello, and welcome to this week's edition of the in conversation with Dr Nicole brown i'm really excited to have with me another guest from across the pond. This time, the other side of the world, and so it is my afternoon and and their morning again and, in this case I have got with me, Dr Mike Collins Hello good to meet you good to have you here, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners.
Meg Collins:Okay i'm a musician and a composer and i've just completed my PhD last spring at Trinity College, Dublin, and my research involves. studying a lot of ethnic instruments ethnics a it's a word we can use folk non traditional non Western each one of them has its own little nuances and sometimes problems but non traditional noise no history instruments and I. compose compositions for them together with Western orchestral instruments so that both there's a reciprocal influence between the genres and, for example, the Western orchestral instruments might imitate some of the. distinguishing characteristics or ornamentation of the traditional traditional the traditional non Western instruments and the non Western instruments will be influenced by typical Western European idioms.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much, I am so excited I cannot tell you I am so excited to be talking to a musician and composer. And because i'm in our series we've already heard from Dr JASMINE shatter who's also a musician and composer but her area is heavy metal. So it's very, very different and that's what's really exciting about these conversations is that obviously there are similarities and yet there are radical differences between genres disciplines. and obviously i'm hoping to get as much out of these conversations in terms of what it means to do practice us research, which brings me to my first question really and, what is your definition of practice as research.
Meg Collins:Well, you know as a musician honestly i'd like to turn the question on its head, if I may. Well, because musicians are always practicing it's not a question of whether or not they will include practice. In their research it's more a question of when and how and why they will introduce research into their practice, and so, for me in the work that I do. i've written, for, as I said, other instruments, for example, native American flute the Irish Ellen pipes the to the Persian Center so in writing for those instruments. I don't play the windpipe or the centaur, so I would need to do some research, and this is either experiential. By experimenting on the instrument myself or finding an expert player in that instrument or reading authoritative texts. But it also involves getting to know about the whole background of the genre to know exactly what is idiomatic to be instrument so that I might know when i'm being non idiomatic so i've introduced research into my practice if I would I can turn the question around.
Nicole Brown:Of course, of course, so this is what these conversations are about So yes, absolutely and can I just ask you one one thing that's kind of come to me now and i'm i'm. Not a musician myself. But I do understand a little bit about the process of writing in terms of creative writing. And one of the things that i'm always asking myself with creative writing is you know which part of the creative writing is. The the kind of the made up part the fiction part the part that is really just there for the sake and which part is the the actual research. And i'm kind of asking that same question to you is that researching the instrument before you get to play it or before you get to write, for it is that correct does that count as research and how is that different from conventional research or is it a different form of research.
Meg Collins:I would say that absolutely counts as research so when i'm working with an instrument that's less familiar to me than Western orchestral instruments and will first. Research in the form of listening to as many compositions research and form, just like, if I were writing for trombone which is you know Western orchestral instruments. I would learn the positions of all the slides so they know what i'm asking the trombone player to do I need to research that, before I begin, writing, but then as i'm not sure, maybe it's the same in creative writing once you begin the process, a lot of it is. As you say, imaginative creative from Finnair but then you have a toolbox, from which to draw whether it's music theory or. What kind of idioms within the genre with best. capitalize on the capabilities of the instrument so as you're composing a lot of times, even if i'm not writing for non Western instrument. i'll write something just strictly musically speaking and then i'm not sure where it's going to go next, and so, then I think all right. Why does this part work and that's, then you rely on the research that happened prior or the music theory to say Okay, I know what these courts will create tension and then resolution will happen this way. So sometimes i'm a little bit confused between what's the difference between a toolbox, such as music theory or research, such as investigating the history in the genre.
Nicole Brown:Yes, that's exactly what i'm really interested in because I mean, for example, the novelist jodie be called I don't know whether you were acquainted with her work, but. there's one particular novel that she's written quite recently about. Abortion centers and and you know the kind of the pros and cons of abortion centers and he's obviously fictionalized. In many ways, but in order to write that book she interviewed 244 women now if you asked anyone and probably very few people would say that that was research. And yet on the other hand, you kind of, say, you know well, having interviewed hundred and 44 women you can't really like dismiss that as not being researched. So so where where is that line, and if you saying that you finding that that line difficult to find obviously i'd be like i'd like to hear a little bit more about your thoughts on that.
Meg Collins:Well, I would say that interviewing 140 something women is absolutely research, but then your research becomes one of your tools so it's a very good analogy. If you think about it she's writing and perhaps she thinks now what would a woman in this situation, say then she'll turn to her research in order to give her more of an idea it's very, very similar to what I do in composition.
Nicole Brown:Is there a difference, though between that kind of research and the research that you do when you do like a doctoral research.
Meg Collins:Well, a lot of that research was involved in my doctoral research and um. it's very easy to present research like saying, Dr Luigi you, and he has written this article and said this it's a little bit more. nebulous when you say, well, I paid someone 50 euros and he came over to my house and show me all the stops on the island pipe you know but that's that's that's just like her interviews and. I think it's a matter of making it official documenting so much of the work I did prior to my PhD was informal I didn't quite know, I was headed in this direction. And then, as I was doing my PhD I thought oh my gosh i've been doing research my whole life, right up into this I just didn't call it that you know.
Nicole Brown:Is there a difference, though between that and that because i'm kind of thinking you know, for in my own mind one way of. You know, for an artist before they create something they do that kind of research, but that may not necessarily need to be systematic. Because they can kind of you know, like just follow that gut basically and just follow down and train of thoughts that they like. And experimenting and exploring without there needing to be any kind of consideration of those the what makes the former research and the former research element has to be kind of more systematic is that is that a thing or not.
Meg Collins:Well, of course, you can write music without having done research but i'm systematic and non systematic research will always enhance or composition, in my opinion. there's danger, I think of allowing systematic research to flavor your creativity in a way um. But one of the advantages would be let's say you see song is written something for the native American flute and you don't think. It utilizes all the capabilities of the instrument you don't think it stretches beyond idiom perhaps that composers didn't have that as a goal, but then you can look at that and say. that's been done that's the direction I don't want to go or here's another thing that I don't think works, but when you systematically research. I think, to convey invade your thoughts be like Okay, this is what's typically done with the cello um you know Eldar has done this with the cello and you know bartok has done that, with the cello and so, then you start to think that's what's to be done with the cello. So you have to allow you when you're being an artist creative writing or or or the Fine Arts painting a studio or anything you have to allow your brain to to roam freely about it more than 50% of the time if we're going to get systematic analysis.
Nicole Brown:Can I just ask, I mean you've you've kind of talked a little bit about how you combine practice and research in your own work, but. What kind of body of literature, do you use to help define and refine that kind of work is there anything in particular that you would say this is this is your go to thing.
Meg Collins:Oh well, because the scope of my research is so broad for my PhD i've written for seven different instruments in eight different compositions so that means that i've researched. seven different instruments, the background the context, the history behind it, so I would refer someone to specific so like if you're if you're writing for the Chinese Bamboo flute Xiao, then you need to reach in your Shin and there will be some writings about. This Xiao in particular they'll be more writings about Chinese ox or Chinese folk music, in general, but then so there's like. different levels of focus can be on the instrument can be on the entire genre surrounding environment or pullback even a step further. I mentioned Luigi jolyon Dini, I would refer anyone to him, he speaks specifically about writing for the Chicago hace, which is a Japanese Bamboo flute but rights, more broadly, what are our responsibilities when we're including a non Western instrument. So you can you can look at it like from abroad musicological perspective or ethnomusicology musicological though that's other than the separation of the two disciplines which is another article chemical separation of the two disciplines and how it has the effect of others. So I could not possibly direct someone to a specific body of literature, because i've touched on so many different subjects, but. um there are great many articles about just writing for non Western music instruments in general, and I would say, Kim and you and Danny if I go to the journals is the journal ecological music and world music.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much thank you. And so, when you're talking about this kind of practice as research, where you are, you know doing your research and then you're going through with the compositions and writing. Why do you do, that what what I mean this sounds like a really stupid question and I apologize for that, but. But what because we know like you've just described how difficult it is, how much reading there is involved, how much you know what kind of obstacles, there are, how how difficult it is to define that. How little recognition sometimes there is for that kind of work, why do you keep keep keep doing it what what's what's the benefit if you like, of that kind of work.
Meg Collins:The benefit of the research or the kind of composing did I do. Oh Oh well, I didn't exactly set out with a mission i'm going to take non Western instruments and put them into Western orchestra ensembles. But i've traveled a bit well you know and actually as we move about the world we encounter cultures that are different from our own are different from our upbringing and these. encounters always intrigued me and I thought I didn't think that's not Western European or that that's something else it's just that, when I encounter a new instrument, I want to know. All about it, and then I saw obstacles to including these instruments in settings outside their original context, and so I saw that it needed to be done carefully and that's where the research actually initially was introduced, what are the considerations that I must. Consider. Before I introduce and and for I don't know if this is all to jargon, or whatever, but there's three considerations for me one is that I need to know the original context and sometimes an instrument will have a ritual or a certain setting associated and we have to start from. One of the parts of respect and then not all these instruments are tuned in equal temperament actually most of them are not. Which means that they have a different tuning tuning system from, for example, the piano where every single key is exactly. The same distance apart into what wise they're all a half step part most non Western instruments are not like that, so when you put them together. that's very much something to be taken into consideration. And the other thing to be taken into consideration is that people who play Western non Western instruments let's say you're going to engage I don't play the Ellen pipes or hire somebody. They learn and perform music in a very different way from Western European musicians, you know typical orchestral musician because it's often by oral dissemination. or sometimes there's an alternate form of notation as with Chinese music and native American music have their own systems of. musical notation so I need to learn that's the research, I need to learn those notations systems and decide whether i'm going to require the person that I get to play to read in standard Western European notation or in their own notation. I think I rambled on the trump ended question.
Nicole Brown:No that's that's perfect, no, no, no, no yeah that's all I mean it's just really interesting to hear you talk about. And about that, because he kind of transpired straightaway what the challenges are off doing that kind of work, because you know it's very easy often to dismiss. Anyone who's doing practices, research, because it doesn't involve 25 interviews or 300 questionnaires. And, and you know it's obviously it doesn't kind of fit the traditional mold of what is usually constituted and. or usually constitutes research and yet here you are talking about actually there is a lot more work involved because I need to to learn the basics first. Before I can do anything else so again he kind of brings you back to the question if if there are so many challenges. What, why are we, why should we keep going with that kind of development and and and I think that's that's a really, really, really important question and I think you. you've kind of answered that really nicely by saying you know you can't really do that unless you understand the basics, and so it.
Meg Collins:kind of economic consequences.
Nicole Brown:Different knowledge is as well isn't it.
Meg Collins:Yes, yeah So when I first began my PhD as I, as I said a little bit before I hadn't realized that i've been doing research my whole life, but the words practices research were. mentioned a lot at during my time at trinity and I never quite understood it i'd be like. Why do I need to present research to tell someone why I compose something isn't it's a very personal thing it is very difficult, sometimes to put your emotional and creative heart on your sleeve, and then to have to justify it with somebody else's authoritative texts. But if you if you go a little bit earlier on in the process. Those three considerations I mentioned before, our our. it's simply a matter of being a responsible respectful insensitive musician knowing that I may be treading on somebody else's. Cultural ground I don't want to insert a negative here, but we want to be very careful not to. assume the position of cultural appropriation of rather one of cultural appreciation so appropriation would be taking something without knowing anything about it and. not giving credit where credit is due and appreciation is understanding fully where this instrument came from and what's the usual context and and then justifying why you would do something different.
Nicole Brown:With it, and and I guess also like you said you know appreciating the current of the tradition that goes on behind there as well, like you said you know a lot of these. Non Western context they perform in a way that it got handed down from generation to generation to actually recognized that the current piece is something that's not just developed within the last 10 years or so, so that's you know, several lifetimes that are actually sitting here.
Meg Collins:yeah and i've noticed the ultimate Irish music, for example, there is even a cultural resistance around writing something new for the Ellen pipes which I know for people, not in the UK or Irish context is a is a kind of an elbow powered bagpipe. So I interviewed many piper's okay there's research. And one of them, the head of the not P be revealing the Pipers club found out what it was doing, and he said, why would you do that, we have hundreds of years and and thousands of tunes Why would you Sally the tradition. So you. I need to know full well that I will encounter people like that, and that in fact most Pipers I approached with this new piece of music will not be able to. i'm not going to say understand, but even access it because that's not it's not typically what they play and and transmitting you know contemporary music by word of mouth is far more difficult than. Just like relating a novel instead of having someone just read it, you know.
Nicole Brown:Can I just ask you if you're looking at you know the kinds of things that you have been doing with the practice us research and looking at the field. There is, how would you like to see a practice as research develop as a field and also in your in your own in your own practice, what do you think are the plans for foot for practice as research.
Meg Collins:Well, I think the term is so broadly used that i'm not really in a position to comment, other than my personal encounter with so I can't speak for the sciences, or for education about their methodology of using practice as as research but. For musicians, in general, I think that. More research and an understanding of where the music came from and where it's headed can only enhance their own expression. One will encounter many, many musicians who don't know the theory behind or the background behind the music that they're performing and and when you encounter musician it doesn't understand the theory behind what they're playing I always wonder how it's impossible for them to. fully express what the music has to offer, because they're just doing it without one for me, one of the very important tools for interpretation. So I think performance can only be enhanced by research. But then there are many different kinds of musicians, who are not like me and can football, you know very nicely express something without knowing all the nuts and bolts behind it, but for me nuts and bolts help.
Nicole Brown:Thank you, I mean, I think that that's that's really kind of the at the heart of all of the conversations i've had so far. With practices research is that it's often quite difficult to separate the practitioner from the researcher, but at the same time. There are many people who are practitioners pure practitioners, who don't do research so it's really interesting you know, on the one hand it's it feels like it's really hard to separate. The practitioner from the researcher, but then, on the other hand, we do have people who are not both so there must be somewhere a line where we can say, well, this is what it means to be a practitioner researcher.
Meg Collins:Well, I think the line must necessarily always be blurred in the field of music because it's not often that you encountered, for example, a person who's a composer and nothing else, just write it doesn't play an instrument doesn't conduct us and teach so and because of the nature of. employment as a musician many, many musicians have their fingers in several pots and so not only is that a you know just a necessity for how life works, but it's it's the idea of being a holistic. musician if you don't perform regularly perhaps you may not be able to understand what it is what position you're putting. The people for whom you're writing in you know, or if you if you don't sing you might not know what you're asking your choristers to do you know so. All of this is like you know, like if somebody who were to own a restaurant they started as a busboy then they did the dishes and they were sous chef and you know they know all of the positions you know so it's like that and music sort of practice yeah. All all practice turns out to be researched, whatever it is you finally decided and no.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much, I really appreciate that I, that was a really, really interesting conversation, and I would like to thank you very much for your time, make it's really, really great to have you here. And if anyone is listening in, and please do check out the YouTube channel and under the bus brand Channel and the podcast details and also the website, which are available on in the descriptions also again, thank you very much for having me today and for for being here. Tonight, you and I look forward to the next conversation.
Meg Collins:Thank you very much. whoops.