In this video, Dr Nicole Brown talks to Cymbeline Buhler about Practice As Research.
Cymbeline Buhler has been a theatre artist for over twenty years. She has held Artistic Director positions at Western Edge Youth Arts in Melbourne and Backbone Youth Arts companies in Brisbane. She has developed over twenty original theatre productions that have shown in North America, Europe, Asia and Australia. Cymbeline is currently undertaking doctoral research investigating her arts practice within ‘Theatre of Friendship, Sri Lanka’, an ongoing peace-building arts network she founded in 2012. Her work has been located in spaces such youth engagement, disability arts, cross-cultural theatre and cross-generational communication.
In this video, Dr Nicole Brown talks to Cymbeline Buhler about Practice As Research.
Cymbeline Buhler has been a theatre artist for over twenty years. She has held Artistic Director positions at Western Edge Youth Arts in Melbourne and Backbone Youth Arts companies in Brisbane. She has developed over twenty original theatre productions that have shown in North America, Europe, Asia and Australia. Cymbeline is currently undertaking doctoral research investigating her arts practice within ‘Theatre of Friendship, Sri Lanka’, an ongoing peace-building arts network she founded in 2012. Her work has been located in spaces such youth engagement, disability arts, cross-cultural theatre and cross-generational communication.
Nicole Brown: hello, and welcome to this week's in conversation and i'm really excited to have somebody here, who is actually from the other side of the world from from my point of view.
Nicole Brown: And we are recording at weird times and it's almost late at night here in the UK and but for simply it's early in the morning because.
Nicole Brown: My guest today is actually calling and hailing from Australia.
Nicole Brown: So simply and you want to say hello.
Cymbeline Buhler: Absolutely, thank you, yes, my name is Kimberly and beulah i'm an independent artist mostly working in applied theater and I am a PhD candidate at Western Sydney university.
Nicole Brown: Thank you very much, and today the two of us are going to be talking about how you define practice as research and what makes practice research for you.
Nicole Brown: And, and how you how you do that, and what you plan for the future, so let's kick off with a first kind of question, what is your definition of practice as research.
Cymbeline Buhler: And yeah, this is a an enormous question in in a way, because it means so many things to so many people.
Cymbeline Buhler: I come from a first Korea in arts practice I come from working in theater primarily in applied theater but also multi arts practice, and so, for me, practice as research is is really centered in that space where my my thoughts practice.
Cymbeline Buhler: Combined with the research social research and.
Cymbeline Buhler: One of the definitions that I have read that I find very useful and really.
Cymbeline Buhler: Valuable comes from Carol Gray, and she talks about.
Cymbeline Buhler: research that is initiated through practice whether the research question kind of arises out of practice and the methods and methodologies are informed by practice and the end the outputs the outcomes feedback into practice and so that's that really works for me that's very much.
Cymbeline Buhler: What i'm what i'm doing in terms of the research that i'm doing in my in my PhD but also as i've been working i've been working on various different projects as a research assistant and stepping in in different roles and what I find is that the.
Cymbeline Buhler: In a sense that definition really sentence, the practice and.
Cymbeline Buhler: And so often, it needs to be the research that really is centered and I think more and more I.
Cymbeline Buhler: Am really interested in working towards something that could just as well be described as researchers practice practices, research, where the to really contribute to each other.
Cymbeline Buhler: To to so that both can be expanded and that the whole process.
Cymbeline Buhler: You know, is somewhat.
Cymbeline Buhler: One could say at certain moments Okay, this is this is research Okay, this is practice, but much of the time they really intertwined they really interwoven.
Nicole Brown: I totally I totally understand where you're coming from because that's that's basically kind of mind and finishing as well and, in many ways.
Nicole Brown: I would like to rather than call it practice as research, I would like to be able to kind of call it.
Nicole Brown: Practice equals research equals practice equals research because, like you said it's this kind of iterative process between practice and research, the feeding back and feeding forward, but at the same time, and you know it isn't it isn't as it is ease and.
Nicole Brown: So it is the kind of the equal sign and that that that's really sort of you know, bringing that idea forward and can I just ask you said that your practice as research.
Nicole Brown: comes out of your arts practice as an employer it for in applied theater and then social research what, what is your social research that you're doing at the moment or what's your research topic, if you like.
Cymbeline Buhler: Yes, so i've been doing.
Cymbeline Buhler: i've been working for a long time for close to 10 years on a transitional justice project in Sri Lanka collaborating with people from multiple different communities different regions and using theatre as a way to meet across different cross cultural kind of spaces.
Cymbeline Buhler: And the research that i'm doing.
Cymbeline Buhler: is actually a kind of like a small project within that larger the larger project is called digital friendship.
Cymbeline Buhler: And the research that i'm working on at the moment is actually to develop a children's book based on those participants visions for transitional justice in their country, so I held a series of.
Cymbeline Buhler: Focus groups.
Cymbeline Buhler: We had a big event that involved lots of different activities theater activities and different things, but and I located these focus groups within that space.
Cymbeline Buhler: and asked the participants about problems that they experiencing in their communities in their lives that they're witnessing and the kind of vision that they have the solutions that they see for for pathway forwards and.
Cymbeline Buhler: And so what i'm generating is.
Cymbeline Buhler: A children's book that communicates the findings that they expressed so i'm working in consultation with the participants i'm actually working as a as a writer as a creative writer in that space and.
Cymbeline Buhler: I have worked with them to get ideas to sort of thrash out some of the ideas and also to get feedback on the on the the writing that you know, does the story really capture those those ideas that they had, and does it.
Cymbeline Buhler: Cultural consultation as well you know it's the story right in terms of its setting there and Sri Lanka and the idea is for that story to.
Cymbeline Buhler: become a children's book in multilingual children's book, so it also serves as a language learning two.
Cymbeline Buhler: Languages, one of the big things that they spoke about as a really important element of moving forward as a as a unified country and.
Cymbeline Buhler: And then it can really speak to the children.
Cymbeline Buhler: About that vision that vision that the participants hold for a future that they feel positive about and excited about, and so the net that vision can can be communicated to a child audience.
Cymbeline Buhler: Ideally, as opposed before that readership is really aware of the the troubles over post war context.
Nicole Brown: that's really exciting that sounds really exciting and it sounds like there's a lot of creative work involved because, like you said you've got workshops.
Nicole Brown: And with them theatre activities you're working as a creative writer and you're you're developing and that children's book through creative writing in that space.
Nicole Brown: So how do you define your practice usually do do you when you think about your practice and you said at the beginning that you've been working as an artist in applied theatre, how would you describe your practice then.
Cymbeline Buhler: Well it's um it's a collaborative practice.
Cymbeline Buhler: So I.
Cymbeline Buhler: I mean, sometimes I work independently and sometimes I do other other projects, but I suppose that the majority the Center of what I do it's really about collaborating with communities collaborating with groups of people.
Cymbeline Buhler: Always with a critical.
Cymbeline Buhler: intent to address to address an issue of relevance to that to that group.
Cymbeline Buhler: and
Cymbeline Buhler: I use it, I use a really wide array of methods of artistic methods.
Cymbeline Buhler: And I mean I always i've always had a principle of.
Cymbeline Buhler: form follows function so so whatever is needed in that space, it might be that it might be that in fact what's really needed is a process that doesn't actually drive towards an artistic outcome, it might be that it's really participate very.
Cymbeline Buhler: processes that.
Cymbeline Buhler: drive the sort of dialogue that's that's needed.
Cymbeline Buhler: Or you know, usually I most of the work i've done involves kind of citizen theater outcomes.
Cymbeline Buhler: Where the participants themselves perform the work that work that speaks to what's important to them i've done a lot of work with personal story, and also with oral history.
Cymbeline Buhler: So, for example, this children's book comes from another project with Vietnamese elders in in Sydney we have a really big Vietnamese Community here.
Cymbeline Buhler: in Australia and a lot of them don't speak English, the the people who first came, you know from Vietnam after the war, during and after the war, and I really I really saw how there is this that then make this contribution to Australian culture.
Cymbeline Buhler: But we don't necessarily recognize that as a broader society, we tend to see that as being a contribution to the Vietnamese Australian community.
Cymbeline Buhler: You know that's that's their that's Their stories and that belongs to their community and that's important to them, and I see that's actually.
Cymbeline Buhler: A huge valuable and rich contribution to who we are, as Australians so I was interviewing those elders and wrote a little children's book, based on the stories that they that they told.
Cymbeline Buhler: And the process that I have been developing I call it into subjective fiction, and this is what i'm doing in the PhD.
Cymbeline Buhler: And it means that the the different stories the different subject activities that are expressed.
Cymbeline Buhler: With you know it's really important to listen to those so the process starts with really making room to hear all of those different stories and for them to respond to each other stories as well.
Cymbeline Buhler: And then the actual artistic outcome it doesn't tell those biographical stories, but it speaks to the spaces in between the stories it speaks to this meeting points between the stories.
Cymbeline Buhler: And, and then the fiction that comes out of that sometimes it has details that are very particular very specific details that came from one particular story or another.
Cymbeline Buhler: But it tells a kind of a meeting point between those stories that.
Cymbeline Buhler: That I always you know work to try and achieve the sense that those participants can hear their story in that outcome but also it has a broader reach it actually speaks to a kind of a collective.
Nicole Brown: yeah.
Nicole Brown: Absolutely, so it sounds very much like your your your philosophy behind your practice as research practice is about empowerment it's about empowering others is that is that a fair comment to say.
Cymbeline Buhler: Yes, yes, I would say it depends sort of on the on the context So yes, that's very that's very important sometimes it's about creating a platform in a way.
Cymbeline Buhler: For the rest of the society to be able to.
Cymbeline Buhler: See those that Community more more visibly or in a different light sometimes it's about creating dialogue between.
Cymbeline Buhler: between communities that project I just was describing and grew out of a project I did with young people and elders and that was really about cross generational.
Dialogue.
Cymbeline Buhler: And so, in a sense.
Cymbeline Buhler: it's always been hard to generalize because each context.
Cymbeline Buhler: Is you know, since sense dictates that the need and it's really important to.
Cymbeline Buhler: I think, to be adaptable to be able to really listen to what people want and what people are interested in and what people need them to and to kind of one comes with a sense of an idea.
Cymbeline Buhler: But as an outsider which my work but almost always i'm almost always an outsider it's very important to be driven by the intentions that they have so they might.
Cymbeline Buhler: want to be empowered in a certain way, or they might have another another concern that they want to address.
Nicole Brown: It sounds released, I mean this, this is really interesting because it kind of comes down to what what makes practice as research.
Nicole Brown: And and and what you're saying is that actually it's yeah it's that that fluidity of the process, the fact that we don't necessarily know exactly what's going to happen that.
Nicole Brown: There is this openness towards the method to the to the process to to to the voices of our participants.
Nicole Brown: And that's something that resonates really strongly and if i'm thinking back to the conversations i've really had with other people.
Nicole Brown: And they are all saying that same kind of thing that it actually is about the process it's not about the outcome, even if some in some cases, the outcome is beautiful.
Nicole Brown: But it is about trying to kind of engage with the process in in the way that's best suited for that particular situation.
Nicole Brown: And and it's really interesting to kind of have that conversation, because how do we know.
Nicole Brown: i'm not expecting you to answer that question but it's you know we have to kind of ask ourselves well if that's the case, then, how do we know.
Nicole Brown: What is the right choice in that particular moment are we making the right choices.
Nicole Brown: Sorry it's obviously that kind of element around reflexivity and criticality that you were saying earlier, were you saying that it's about a critical intend.
Nicole Brown: And I think this is where it comes back to that we have to kind of keep an eye open to that you know is is is what we do appropriate in the situation that we are applying it.
Nicole Brown: So yeah it's really interesting to you.
Cymbeline Buhler: I think one of the really useful ways of thinking about this is the notion of performance sensitive forms of knowledge, you know in in research.
Cymbeline Buhler: This sort of performant performative knowledge actually is, is a.
Cymbeline Buhler: Really powerful concept, where some of the time we can actually articulate.
Cymbeline Buhler: Findings or knowledge in a way that is very concrete, but some of the time, in fact, it needs to be embodied some of the time it's in that space of embodiment of interaction of consultation that that the knowledge actually is expressed or emerges.
Cymbeline Buhler: So, in a sense.
Cymbeline Buhler: You know, we set out, we set out on a path, and I think this is true of arts practice end of research generally we're sort of set out on a path with it.
Cymbeline Buhler: And I strong idea, and it needs to adjust it needs to change it needs to evolve in response to what we find in response to happen and what sort of data we collect or in response to.
Cymbeline Buhler: How people respond to the to the provocations that we that we bring and.
Cymbeline Buhler: And so much of this practices research is about.
Cymbeline Buhler: being responsive in those spaces, even where we're not expecting to find.
Cymbeline Buhler: You know.
Cymbeline Buhler: yeah so it's not it's not just we're not just looking at the data we're also looking at the sort of spaces that lead into data collection, or the sort of interaction between the data and the participants or or whatever it is looking into those.
Cymbeline Buhler: Those spaces in between, and really being available to to respond in to.
Cymbeline Buhler: adjust the the process as it goes.
Nicole Brown: So that's that's that's great I mean it's not the kind of the body of literature that you draw on around embodiment or performative.
Nicole Brown: Knowledge is that you know, for your own practice as research, or is there a different body of literature or together that you draw on you know which which kind of body of literature, do you use to define your work.
Cymbeline Buhler: Yes, I would say I am very eclectic and So yes, I am very interested in performance ethnography performance research.
Cymbeline Buhler: and
Cymbeline Buhler: performative social sciences.
Cymbeline Buhler: And I in terms of the sort of inner subjective fiction that theorizing of into subjective fiction and i'm drawing on concept of dialogic reality and and third space, so this is.
Cymbeline Buhler: How homie Baba and mikael becton and looking at the.
Cymbeline Buhler: This sort of how these spaces of.
Cymbeline Buhler: This meeting points can occur, this kind of.
Cymbeline Buhler: spaces of.
Cymbeline Buhler: spaces that open up where people actually can find some new aspect of themselves or something some new aspect of a Community that is actually in response to each other, the ways that the ways that we.
Cymbeline Buhler: will shift, who we are, in response to encounter with the other.
Cymbeline Buhler: and
Cymbeline Buhler: Yes, and i've been doing quite a lot of reading in the space of creative writing as research which is, I would say, a sort of a bit of a subset of practices, research and a few of the.
Cymbeline Buhler: Some of the literature that's been particularly useful there i've been reading eugene bacon who.
Cymbeline Buhler: talks about how fiction allows us to imbue a sort of a common object with tremendous sort of power in terms of the way that we're communicating with our reader we can communicate ideas with this sort of extraordinary sort of.
Cymbeline Buhler: impact that.
Cymbeline Buhler: We don't necessarily need to unpack some of the ideas can be communicated very directly, without necessarily this sort of.
Cymbeline Buhler: I mean i'm the way i'm working at the moment, I have the fiction and then I also have a very traditional academic texts that really does unpack much of what i'm wanting to say but.
Cymbeline Buhler: Patricia levy also.
Cymbeline Buhler: talks about how fiction can create a kind of a space of familiarity so that the reader actually experiences, the ideas differently, the reader enters into we invite the reader into a space.
Cymbeline Buhler: that's quite different in how they are receiving the ideas they become involved with the characters and and and build empathy.
Cymbeline Buhler: De Freitas is another another author that talks about the the protective capacity for fiction to open empathy in a reader and which means that the ideas actually learned very differently.
Cymbeline Buhler: i'm.
Nicole Brown: Sorry sorry I didn't want to interrupt but it but it's great it's quite similar to what Sandra Faulkner and Monica Brenda guster saying in terms of poetic inquiry.
Nicole Brown: So, their work around poetic inquiry it's also kind of talking about how the poetry coming out of research or related to research.
Nicole Brown: enables a different view and and enables people to kind of think things differently and make an emotional connection where the conventional research report.
Nicole Brown: And would not have that impact at you know to kind of create that emotional connection.
Nicole Brown: Which is kind of the power of that kind of work so yes i'm i'm totally with you on that it's really quite interesting to hear you also talk about.
Nicole Brown: The fact that you are doing, both you're doing kind of more conventional traditional work alongside the creative work, which is what I do as well.
Nicole Brown: And because you kind of have to still play those the the the rules of the game, even if you don't necessarily like them all of the time, but yeah.
Nicole Brown: So when you when you're thinking about all of these things that you kind of you know contemplating on in terms of practices, research, in your view, what are the challenges of doing practice as research.
Cymbeline Buhler: yeah I think.
Cymbeline Buhler: I think the thing about the challenge is really about it's a it's a form of walking into worlds, and so there is a process of.
Cymbeline Buhler: Translation going on all of the time, and one of the things I was thinking about as a sort of a definition of practices research is this kind of tacit knowledge that.
Cymbeline Buhler: would bring you know if if you are an artist come into research or a researcher come into practice and you bring this sort of body of knowledge and body of practice.
Cymbeline Buhler: and
Cymbeline Buhler: It operates automatically in a way, and I think coming from the ads we tend not to.
Cymbeline Buhler: show that we often like that are working to be.
Cymbeline Buhler: invisible in a way, and coming and coming into research it's really important to show those workings.
Cymbeline Buhler: And so there's some sort of adaptations there in terms of.
Cymbeline Buhler: If i'm if i'm in this space and communicating in this space, then I.
Cymbeline Buhler: I want to do it in a certain way that's going to work for that audience and if i'm in this space over here, I want to you know, change the way that I present the work change the way that I communicate about the work, and so it means that there's this constant kind of.
Cymbeline Buhler: code switching or sort of login login is talks about world traveling and I would say.
Cymbeline Buhler: As a researcher and as a as a practice researcher I am constantly world traveling even within even within a text that i'm writing this chapter, you know speaks in this particular to this particular audience and this chapter.
Cymbeline Buhler: knows that that audience is there, but tries to bring them into in a different way it's sort of it's sort of shape shifting and I think it's the strength of practice research practice as research.
Cymbeline Buhler: But it's a bit it's a challenge means that there's this sort of extra Labor and I feel Sometimes I feel like it's twice the work Sometimes I feel like this creative aspect.
Cymbeline Buhler: is actually just a whole extra job on top of the research and in a sense, there's a risk of almost half the outcome, I mean the sense that i'm sort of over here this part of the outcome is visible and over here this part of the outcome is is visible and the challenge is to.
Cymbeline Buhler: bring them together in a way that.
Cymbeline Buhler: That means that the the Labor is.
Cymbeline Buhler: Always working towards a larger something larger and and to really make the work visible so much literature about practices research.
Cymbeline Buhler: justifies the the value of it or justifies that the what it contributes to research, and I think that's one of the great challenges is to work in a way that doesn't have to have this additional justification or this additional sort of.
Cymbeline Buhler: Extra invitation or this extra.
Cymbeline Buhler: This extra sort of work that to attract to you know.
Do.
Nicole Brown: You feel it's more difficult to get your work recognized amongst artists, because it's not art and amongst researchers, because it's not research.
Cymbeline Buhler: Yes, I mean, I would say absolutely that's the that's the sort of risk of having half the outcome.
Cymbeline Buhler: is why is the word for the outcome, however, in another another way of looking at it, is that it could be twice the outcome, I mean it.
Cymbeline Buhler: Some time the outcomes aren't necessarily bad I really am interested in in distinguishing between a creative outcome and arts an artistic outcome, and I think that these distinctions are very.
Cymbeline Buhler: Not not very recognized they're sort of quite if we think about all the things that practices research means it means different things to different people, but we don't really have language yet to different differentiate.
Cymbeline Buhler: But I think you know, sometimes those outcomes can be of artistic value.
Cymbeline Buhler: Just as any other artistic outcome would be and, of course, there are a lot of.
Cymbeline Buhler: Practice as research, you know artists to say well what's what's new about.
Cymbeline Buhler: about this playwrights have been researching humanity forever and and you know that arts practice actually includes this kind of these elements of analysis of.
Cymbeline Buhler: observation and analysis, just as there are researchers who would say well it's really creative, which of course it is so I think this is one of the real really deep challenges is how to find language that actually differentiates.
Cymbeline Buhler: The different the different aspects, the different embodiments of practices research.
Nicole Brown: Are you saying that that is how you hope that the field will develop that we find sort of perhaps more clearer categorization or terminology or language.
Cymbeline Buhler: Absolutely yeah absolutely That is exactly one or this one of the big things that I am working with at the moment.
Cymbeline Buhler: Looking at the difference between identifying the difference between.
Cymbeline Buhler: For example, a process and an outcome.
Cymbeline Buhler: A creative process might actually be a tremendous value for generating a kind of data that you wouldn't generate from more.
Cymbeline Buhler: Straight sort of process so, for example, the difference between a focus group which is just a discussion or a focus group that has elements of creative place.
Cymbeline Buhler: And then.
Cymbeline Buhler: The differentiation between, as I said before, a creative outcome that might involve.
Cymbeline Buhler: Participants exploring an idea.
Cymbeline Buhler: I would think of a creative outcome as something that involves creative exploration creative play something very, very enjoyable something very.
Cymbeline Buhler: That really stays in that very fun space of creative exploration and then the outcome is something that's likely to have meaning to the participants and to the researchers.
Cymbeline Buhler: But you wouldn't demand of it that it can communicate to it, an audience, whereas I would say, an artistic outcome.
Cymbeline Buhler: really consider that audience speaks to an audience and communicates ideas in a way that.
Cymbeline Buhler: You know, should have meaning that really call for a public audience, to be able to make meaning.
Cymbeline Buhler: So these sorts of me there's so many possibilities of how that's practice and creative practice can enter into research or or the other way around.
and
Cymbeline Buhler: I would love I would love to see.
Cymbeline Buhler: greater and greater greater sort of differentiation of language to recognize those those different environments.
Nicole Brown: that's really interesting I mean it just kind of dawned on me, listening to you know carve your ideal, you know development for the future sort of thing.
Nicole Brown: kind of dawned on me that you like you're saying you know there's a difference between the arts for the arts sake and the art for the research sake and and in a way, and both are trying to obviously create.
Nicole Brown: The opposite both meaningful they're both trying to create some kind of reaction.
Nicole Brown: But it's the difference between arts and and us as research or practice as research in the fact that the practice as research has got.
Nicole Brown: A kind of a more academic endeavor behind it, whereas the arts, one could potentially just be people's enjoyment didn't you know what I mean this.
Nicole Brown: Yes, there's a perhaps a call for action involved in in in the the art piece in the sculpture in the painting.
Nicole Brown: But actually it's not necessarily trying to demonstrate particular ways of thinking, because it kind of leaves the interpretation open.
Nicole Brown: Whereas within the practice as research, we are hoping that our readers will understand how we have come to the conclusions that we have drawn and that we kind of try and help them along that way does that make sense i'm not sure i'm making sense.
Cymbeline Buhler: Yes, no, it makes sense to me, I would say.
Cymbeline Buhler: I mean, I would say that there's.
Cymbeline Buhler: there's other possibilities to, for example, I was, I was looking at some work of a really interesting.
Cymbeline Buhler: Health academic and health researcher in Australia Catherine boydell and she's been developing, something which she calls and she uses art art as.
Cymbeline Buhler: Knowledge translation, and so what she does actually bring in professional artists.
Cymbeline Buhler: To create a work that actually communicates the findings she's done the research and and she's she's.
Cymbeline Buhler: found she's just she has a finance she's she's reporting on that in an academic a traditional academic way and then bringing artists in to communicate those findings in a way that actually speaks to an audience and non academic audience.
Cymbeline Buhler: And so that kind of knowledge translation.
Cymbeline Buhler: I think.
Cymbeline Buhler: can be found in a lot of practice as research, so I wouldn't call what she's doing practices research because she's not using that arts practice in the research process.
Cymbeline Buhler: Yes, but I would hazard a guess that that will that that will start to grow that by doing that, and this, there will be opportunities, I mean I would love to see opportunities for greater collaboration.
Cymbeline Buhler: Where practices research might not be done by the one person, it might be that there is a.
Cymbeline Buhler: researcher who seeks out an artist or a group of artists to have a particular skill that can be a value in that research.
Cymbeline Buhler: or Similarly, I would love to see artists recognizing the value of bringing in researchers who can actually help construct methods for investigation that can feed into that artistic outcome.
Cymbeline Buhler: Whereas I think at the moment we think of practices research as being something that happens within one person and we use the resources that we have rather than looking at.
Cymbeline Buhler: What is, what are the gaps here in in this research, what could be what could strengthen this research, what could strengthen this artistic process.
Cymbeline Buhler: And I think there's just such potential for.
Cymbeline Buhler: For collaboration for really interesting artistic research collaborations and also.
Cymbeline Buhler: Is of experimentation, where we push beyond the sort of tools that we've got at hand and and you know experiment using those using those tools, you know, so much so much of what I would say practices research uses what I would call more creative methods.
Cymbeline Buhler: Yes, and you know, and I think researchers have really seen like creative creative practice can be so enriching.
Cymbeline Buhler: And you know, and I think Similarly, on the other side there's a sort of recognition of some of the sort of notions that come from academia that are being embraced in.
Cymbeline Buhler: In arts practice and and there's room for greater understanding across those those lines.
Nicole Brown: that's a really, really nice line to finish on actually it's really, really nice to hear you talk about this, I would like to say thank you so much symbolism for for for having done this today.
Nicole Brown: I really, really appreciate the time that you've taken and the fact that you've gotten up early for us as well.
Nicole Brown: And anyone who's listening in, and please do check out the other conversations that are available on the website on the.
Nicole Brown: Bus spread podcast and on the YouTube channel and and I hope you all check in again at a later stage.
Nicole Brown: And for now, thank you very much symbol in for for for having this conversation with me, it was fantastic and it's really, really interesting to hear about your practice as research and I certainly look forward to hearing more about it in the future as well.
Cymbeline Buhler: Thank you so much.