In conversation with Dr Jasmine Shadrack

In this podcast, Dr Nicole Brown talks to Dr Jasmine Shadrack about Practice As Research.

Dr Jasmine Hazel Shadrack is a composer, musician, and scholar. She has been an extreme metal guitarist for the last twenty years and a black metal vocalist for the last five. Her research areas include trauma studies, disability studies, feminism, performance, extreme metal, autoethnography and psychoanalysis. She sits on the editorial board for the Metal Music Studies journal and is currently working on two co-edited collections, Music and Death vol. 2 (through Progressive Connexions and Emerald) and Metal and Dis/Ability with Professor Amber Clifford of the University of Missouri, USA, also through Emerald. She is currently composing a Requiem Mass and working on a dark folk collaboration with Francesca Stevens, entitled Dōlǒur. Her website is available at http://www.nacht-hexe.com.

Jasmine's book "Black Metal, Trauma, Subjectivity and Sound: Screaming the Abyss" is available from Emerald at https://books.emeraldinsight.com/page/detail/Black-Metal-Trauma-Subjectivity-and-Sound/?k=9781787569263

Transcript

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Nicole Brown: Hello! Welcome to the practice as research and network podcast. I'm very excited to have you here today and I am going to introduce you to a very special guest who's going to talk to me about practice as research and so Jasmine, do you want to say hello.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Hello.

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Jasmine Shadrack: A quick intro then. My name is Dr Jasmine Hazel Shadrack and I am formerly senior lecturer of over a decade and I'm now an independent scholar.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And a visiting lecturer at the University of Falmouth and the University of Missouri in the States, and I do a lot of work for him in Berlin, as well, and the idea of.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Research has practiced on to be a packer dimmick to use a term coined by Rebecca Lamont Jenkins, is.

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Jasmine Shadrack: it's not just a question of thinking about the theory, because you need to be able to put that theory into practice, so you have your methodology.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And you have your methodology methodological framework and those things fuse together to help create new ontology and epistemologies that's kind of where i'm currently at with it.

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Nicole Brown: Thank you very much, I really appreciate that but can I ask you and I know I know obviously what your field of study is but can you tell for for the benefit of anyone who's listening and watching and what your what your field of study is.

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Jasmine Shadrack: yeah I'm a musician and I'm also so it's so it's trauma studies and disability studies and performance studies and musicology.

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Nicole Brown: Thank you very much. The first thing that I would like to ask you really is how, how do you define practice as research, I mean you've kind of already said a little bit about.

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Nicole Brown: about the epistemology and ontology is, but at the same time, you know how do you within your own field as a musicologist define practice as research.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Well, I think you gain an awful lot from.

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Jasmine Shadrack: My PhD I think I mean i've been a an extreme metal guitarist for 21 years now, and you know also being an academic year you can be on stage or.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You know you're composing are going to your gigs and moving all your equipment.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And well sort of these things are happening you've got audience engagement and things and something will happen, and it will jar you and you're like oh okay that's really significant that means something.

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Jasmine Shadrack: I need to work out what that means, and through that process I then realized that I was establishing a new way of thinking about these things because there's not very many women on stage playing extreme metal there still isn't.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And I realized that I was in quite a interesting position to be able to speak from my experiences so as a direct result of that.

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Jasmine Shadrack: I discovered my methodology, but I think I already knew what I wanted to use as my theoretical framework, but the methodology was the thing that was I was like well God how am I going to do this and.

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Jasmine Shadrack: it's all very well me experiencing these things, but how do I have a system to help me make sense of what they mean.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And I discovered something called interpretive performance auto ethnography and people it's very easy to get auto ethnography wrong and think it's auto biography and it's not.

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Jasmine Shadrack: it's really difficult because you have to examine, you are the self examining the self and you got to be really rigorous and hard with yourself, so if you're not prepared to.

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Jasmine Shadrack: stare at yourself long and hard then don't do it because it can be very difficult, because a lot of the.

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Jasmine Shadrack: The cool epiphanies moments or turning point events into these these things that stay with you that help to define who you are becoming.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You know they.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Sometimes they can be really nice ones, but oftentimes that can be quite traumatic ones, and it offers you a system to go back into those moments to unpack them and disentangle them.

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Nicole Brown: Yes, thank you very much, I mean, I agree with you and otter necrophilia is one of those things that's often.

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Nicole Brown: often done badly i'm not saying always, but it is often done badly, because people are either like you say don't actually do that introspection well enough or they don't look out too much it either you know so so he's kind of this suddenly becomes just.

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Nicole Brown: throw in understanding what I am and where I am but not actually making any connections out towards either.

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uh huh.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Sorry, I you know i'd been in my area of research, without even realizing it was going to be my area of research.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You know, for like just over two decades so.

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Jasmine Shadrack: i'd already you know whether we realize it or not, at the time, already started to do my data gathering.

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Jasmine Shadrack: But it was just like well how on earth, am I going to you know make sense of all of this, but actually that wasn't my starting block my starting block was as a survivor of domestic abuse.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And you know when I managed to get myself out of that scenario.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And is always the most dangerous point and I thought well what am I going to do with all of this, you know I need a home, I need somewhere safe.

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Jasmine Shadrack: But somewhere docked put all this, you know, I was never going to create music that was going to be considered pop or anything in a major key well, no.

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Jasmine Shadrack: So I decided to co create a black metal band a black metal is a subsection of extreme metal that actually originates in Scandinavia.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And away particularly and some Sweden and I actually having spent you know well over a decade playing death metal it just became so awesome a sudden he was just too much I just couldn't.

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Jasmine Shadrack: handle it anymore, and I couldn't go back there because I wasn't the same woman anymore, I was like well I need to find a new space right, so I.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Created one, knowing full well that there was you know, a wealth of you know, understanding what the the key competition or signifiers were, and you know what the aesthetics were.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And I was very lucky just purely from happenstance really to find some other people that wanted to do this, too, so.

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Jasmine Shadrack: We started a band and then that became the practice focus of my PhD and you know we ended up being you know pretty successful and doing some incredible shows, and you know all over the all over the world and.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Then I spent all of last year, turning it into my monograph which is, if I may excuse the person.

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Nicole Brown: That is excited to cover work.

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Jasmine Shadrack: On stage.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And it's.

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Jasmine Shadrack: In I think God, what would I have done about all of that working through all of that trauma had, I have not somehow instinctively known.

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Jasmine Shadrack: That as an artistic person that I needed to how's it all in an artistic safe space, I mean black metal isn't a safe music, but the people I was working with I consider to be safe and that meant a great deal to me.

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Nicole Brown: So can I just ask you to kind of go back a little bit because you were saying that you know that that somehow the field of study in a reef around you or the practice as research in a way, found you as much as you found it.

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Nicole Brown: yeah what's that kind of the body of literature that you use to kind of help you define that kind of relationship with with you know the practice as research.

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Jasmine Shadrack: there's there's two fields, actually, one of which of course is the interpretive performance ultra ethnography field.

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Particularly.

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Jasmine Shadrack: This one yes it's only a little bit.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Yes, every single word and here was bald I lit honestly, you should see the stake in this book.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Actually, every single word.

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Jasmine Shadrack: really hit on something when you suddenly.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Underlining everything like crazy like oh my God, this is it, this is the Holy Grail and and then the other side of that was a body of work that started in about 2014 called black metal theory.

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Jasmine Shadrack: So it's a subsidiary theoretical frame that sits within metal music studies and it has a very different way of engaging and the language style is different it's like academic prose.

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Jasmine Shadrack: If such a thing would exist it's like you know if the romantic poets had been academics it's the most beautiful language style and it's really dark and engaging and a bit like Chris Davis actually her language style it doesn't shy away from being really am I allowed to swear or not.

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Nicole Brown: Yes, you are far as I'm concerned.

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Jasmine Shadrack: away from being really *** dark and angry and I thought oh that's my jam I need some of that so I started to get engaged with that and realize it was talking about all the bands that I absolutely loved and I thought right I think I've.

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Jasmine Shadrack: found quite a significant marriage between two different overs of work and it just so happened that through the band to it co started it all started to.

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Jasmine Shadrack: coalesce together rather beautifully.

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Nicole Brown: So one of the things that I'm really interested in is exactly what you started to kind of talk about now and i'd like to delve in a little bit more, if I may, and is that you know when you're playing in your band and that's obviously the practice part.

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Nicole Brown: So, so when when the the guitarist.

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Nicole Brown: Our test stop and the researcher Jasmine come in at what point is there this transition from.

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Nicole Brown: Being only not not in any kind of pejorative way, but like purely rather than only, but you know at what point is is is there no longer than that pure artists Jasmine and but then the dual person the artist researcher.

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Jasmine Shadrack: I don't think I ever.

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Jasmine Shadrack: separated them, and you know when you're when you're researching when you're using yourself and your own experiences as your as your data it's I mean you're leaving yourself very open and very vulnerable I was.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Like really aware of that, right from the get go and particularly because I was talking about the trauma or it's.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You know, with a really important question was altruist naqvi is you need to know when enough is enough.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You need to say right I've done enough on that now and I need to stop because if you if you don't exercise some discipline and some control over this.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You know this could keep going on and on and on and you would end up actually be traumatizing or sell so you need to be really careful and.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You know, and I only discovered that when I was doing all the all the editing for the monograph last year, I thought God, you know the sections of this that I just can't I can't read this again I'm done I just literally.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And so, whilst you are there is no separation, but between the researcher and the research it's all encapsulated within one person.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And as long as you acknowledge that, right from the get go and that becomes a kind of mantra that you always fall back on.

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Jasmine Shadrack: That really helps I don't think I was ever very successful at separating these things out, you know I could be on stage and i'm you know we're playing our songs and the audience is there, but how the audience is then engaging.

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Jasmine Shadrack: it's my research of brains going hang on that's really interesting that's really interesting I need to make sure I remember that was not fucking up what I'm playing.

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Jasmine Shadrack: So you know you are your your brain is firing on all cylinders in that moment, because there's just so much information to take in and you don't want to forget any of it.

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Jasmine Shadrack: But I don't think I ever really very successfully said Oh well, i'm on stage, so this is guitarist jazz or performer jazz.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And I'm at home now with my with my research and my books now I'm researching jazz I don't think I was ever able to have a nice clear definition, but the.

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Jasmine Shadrack: The framework that you're just not going to be really did help because it was taken from john Paul Sartre and so you have this capacity to be able to work backwards and then examine where you are and having those frameworks actually really assisted me in the entire process.

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Nicole Brown: So, are you in order to ethnography.

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Jasmine Shadrack: hmm.

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Jasmine Shadrack: I think I was for that one moment but then because I delved so deeply into it.

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Jasmine Shadrack: I don't think I'll ever not be yeah Now I know it so intimately.

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Nicole Brown: That makes sense, it makes complete sense to me so yeah Thank you very much, and can I just ask, I mean, in a way you've kind of started to talk about that a little bit, but again I'd like to kind of go back.

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Nicole Brown: To it a little bit is, what do you think are the challenges of practice as research, so if anyone was going to say oh that's an interesting way of doing research, I want to try, that what would you tell them.

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Jasmine Shadrack: A couple of things I think probably I mean it's not autobiography it's not just you telling somebody your life story that's not what this is the.

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Jasmine Shadrack: point is to be really rigorous and analytical so you can have your methodology, but if you don't have a theoretical framework to apply to the data that you've gathered, what was the point of doing it.

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Jasmine Shadrack: So I chose to partner and Julia Christina because of the performative nature of their of their psycho analysis.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Yes, and I think actually I just I kind of I actually needed psychoanalysis to help me make sense of my own mind during those processes and.

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Jasmine Shadrack: I learned so much, I discovered so much and that's the point isn't it if the research right to just to just get to my.

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Jasmine Shadrack: there's there's always more than one truth but I needed to know that it was my truth or not the truth that the user wanted to rule you know it needed to be my story not theirs.

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Jasmine Shadrack: So it was a very cathartic but very painful process and I was really grateful that there was a musical space or biological space that I could bring all of this stuff to go here here is some really.

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Jasmine Shadrack: potent content, for you know for the album let's get it done, because then I could just I can cut it out of me and, though there is over there now I don't have to keep it within me, because if you.

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Jasmine Shadrack: If you do that, it will make you ill, yes, you got it you just got to get it out of you, and you know a lot of therapy is kind of based on that idea right talking therapies and everything, but you know, to get it out, but um so my dog is about to start coughing i'm so sorry.

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Nicole Brown: that's right.

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Nicole Brown: And I've got two more questions or you know it's nearly done for the.

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Jasmine Shadrack: last word of caution and you might not realize what you're getting into with auto ethnography until you're in it and they like oh God, this is really big, this is really significant and important and and it might be too much for me emotionally.

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Jasmine Shadrack: So self care when you're doing or technology is really important don't just dive in and assume it's going to be a normal research practice because it's not.

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Nicole Brown: No.

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Nicole Brown: I, I agree with you and and often there is not enough support.

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Nicole Brown: Around for for people that do that kind of work, I do agree with you.

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Nicole Brown: I agree, so how would you how would you like to see your own practice as research develop.

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Nicole Brown: What, what do you what's your your plan for for for the kind of the next steps, how do you want to you know take that further now or.

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Nicole Brown: Are you done with it.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Well, interestingly due to some health issues and.

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Jasmine Shadrack: I because I I'm not disabled, so I.

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Jasmine Shadrack: have realized that 17 intersecting element into all of my research practices disability theory and.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You know I discovered that I'm you neurodivergent I'm autistic and I've got ADHD and you know all of these things happened that you know I discovered I got my diagnosis like one after the other, and I was like oh my God right Okay, so this is this, I have to do with this now and and.

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Jasmine Shadrack: So was like can't perhaps be on stage in the way that I was before I've had to reimagine what that selfhood looks like.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And what my composition and performance is going to be like moving forward, you know pandemic aside.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And so myself and the other woman in the band, and she and I decided to carry on working together so we've decided to do that and i'm composing a lot more now I'm actually composing a requiem mass so that's.

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Jasmine Shadrack: taken up.

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Jasmine Shadrack: So it's.

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Jasmine Shadrack: My.

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Jasmine Shadrack: I'm still doing your test know goofy but it's it looks very different.

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Nicole Brown: So, are you saying that instead of doing I kind of more sort of you know, written or two ethnography where you're writing about your your practice on stage it's now becoming a case of the process of thinking and it's embedded in the composition, so in the doing.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Definitely.

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Jasmine Shadrack: that's not what was happening.

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Nicole Brown: These two things are kind of merging together more.

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Jasmine Shadrack: it's really affected the way that I write actually which I, which I really love actually and I've just.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Written a chapter for than the new music and death book through Emerald and I used Walter Benjamin and the idea of the creature alien that you know because through this process I've actually.

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Jasmine Shadrack: become a kind of altered version of what existed before and that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been found, or to ethnography if I hadn't have got an acquired disability and it's just really made me engage with.

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Jasmine Shadrack: new lines of flight to quote dollars.

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Nicole Brown: that's really interesting So what do you see how do you see the practice researcher otter ethnography develop in your field so as a part of musicology is there.

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Nicole Brown: Is there scope for that.

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Jasmine Shadrack: There is scope for it but it's interesting that.

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Jasmine Shadrack: If it's musicology people would much rather be called musicologists.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Once you get to the nuts and bolts of a score right or recording and I, I appreciate that, so what I did was was merged, the two that bring these things together.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You know you you don't have to just be a musicologist or a performer.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Because if you're if you're a musician you're always analyzing the music you don't ever stop well, I certainly don't ever stop it drives me crazy sometimes I don't ever stop analyzing the music, so it seemed strange to me that there was this gap.

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Jasmine Shadrack: In the research, generally speaking, and so you know I'm not saying that my monograph is going to change the way people do their research or anything but you know there's there's an example there an hour of you know, it can be done just be careful.

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Nicole Brown: Thank you, I really appreciate it, I mean, I must admit that it's that.

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Nicole Brown: gap that's that's that for me is the interesting part is you know, like, how do you kind of make sense that, on the one hand you theoretically thinking about it and then you're practically doing it.

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Nicole Brown: But actually it's two separate entities and that's exactly why i'm so interested in this whole idea of practice as research, where we can say actually.

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Nicole Brown: This is a different way of doing it let's bring those two things together and see see what happens in a way, but at the same time, because it's not conventional research.

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Nicole Brown: And it's probably more difficult to to to boundary it and then Stefan less tangible and as a race becoming more difficult to handle.

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Jasmine Shadrack: there's an assumption that it's biased as well.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Yes, and you know you just like well if I'm talking about my trauma and what happened to me and my time on stage as a guitarist you know, nobody else can can speak more fully about that they're not there me.

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Jasmine Shadrack: And I was just so relieved that this framework actually existed and that actually facilitated me being able to actually do that with with.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You know, solid rigor that it wasn't just autobiography but you know, the idea of the research and the researcher, is a very old standing academics idea isn't it and you know, therefore, that it will be unbiased and objective, and I think when it comes to anything to do with subjectivity.

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Jasmine Shadrack: You you need to be able to put your own voice and what you're doing.

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Jasmine Shadrack: Yes, you've got to use.

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Jasmine Shadrack: going to use, you know the performative I not you know that typical academic language and I actually had to say that at the beginning of the monograph.

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Jasmine Shadrack: There are times when I do use typical academic language but there's times, where I'm talking about my own experiences I don't do that, and this is the reason why, so you do get this changing your voice that happens throughout the monograph, but it was it was necessary.

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Nicole Brown: Thank you, but the thing is also is both both voices are true voices on the they both through the truth.

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Nicole Brown: Just the different elements of it in a way, yes.

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Jasmine Shadrack: yeah but once given more respect than the other.

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Nicole Brown: Yes.

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Nicole Brown: Well, thank you very much and JASMINE I really, really appreciate the time that you've taken today i'm.

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Nicole Brown: going to be.

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Nicole Brown: I'm going to make be making sure that we've got the link to the book as well, so that people can check out your your work more more closely and more more carefully and and and I look forward to to future connections and further work from you in that area.

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Jasmine Shadrack: brilliant Thank you so much.