In this online seminar Dr Elena Tragou, a systemic psychologist-psychotherapist the relationship between ethics, research and practice.
How can we understand the three from a systemic point of view? How does “Aesthetics” clarify (if it does) the intertwining relationship of the three? A tour de force has been unfolding during the last four decades where professionals of mental health, researchers and educators have been opening up the dialogue on ethics, practice and research from an epistemic and ontological point of view. It seems that unless we contextualize the meaning of these ideas in a systemic epistemology we, as professionals, will be losing the great significance of their connections by focusing on the divided, Cartesian way of understanding them. May the tour go on…
Dr Elena Tragou is a systemic psychologist-psychotherapist, researcher, educator and a writer. She has published two books on clinical assessment, numerous research articles and has been participating in European and International conferences presenting her work on systemic research and therapy, human communication, and supervision and therapy. She is a clinical member of APA and AAMFT, Registered MHT, and a member of ELESYTH.
In this online seminar Dr Elena Tragou, a systemic psychologist-psychotherapist the relationship between ethics, research and practice.
How can we understand the three from a systemic point of view? How does “Aesthetics” clarify (if it does) the intertwining relationship of the three? A tour de force has been unfolding during the last four decades where professionals of mental health, researchers and educators have been opening up the dialogue on ethics, practice and research from an epistemic and ontological point of view. It seems that unless we contextualize the meaning of these ideas in a systemic epistemology we, as professionals, will be losing the great significance of their connections by focusing on the divided, Cartesian way of understanding them. May the tour go on…
Dr Elena Tragou is a systemic psychologist-psychotherapist, researcher, educator and a writer. She has published two books on clinical assessment, numerous research articles and has been participating in European and International conferences presenting her work on systemic research and therapy, human communication, and supervision and therapy. She is a clinical member of APA and AAMFT, Registered MHT, and a member of ELESYTH.
Mhm
Nicole Brown:hello and welcome everybody. It's good to meet you all again. Um, for this week's practice as research seminar. Um really excited as always to have an international audience. It's always exciting to meet people from other countries. Um. And today we have got with us Dr. Elena, who is going to be talking about ethics, research practice, saying to the company, but three is a crowd, and i'm really excited um to to to have Eleanor here. Um, just to say. Dr. Eleanor is a systemic psychologist, psychotherapist, researcher, educator, and writer. She's published two books on clinical assessment. She's also published a number a good number of research articles, and she's been participating in European and international conferences, presenting her work on Systemic Research and Therapy, human communication and supervision and therapy. And it's actually on, you know, as part of one of those conferences where Einstein and I met for the first time. Um, we've just said. You know this is probably the advantage in some ways of the pandemic, having forced us all to to learn to work in different ways, because we're not quite sure whether Ellen and I would have connected otherwise because of our differences in disciplines. Um! Just to finish off um. Eleanor is a clinical member of Apa, and am ft. She's um br. This is Ms. T. And a member of illicit as well. Um, please do check out um. Eleanor's work and um make available some links for you later on as well. I'm going to stop sharing my screen here. Um, Eleanor, please do take command off the screens. Um! I'm going to mute myself, so that there is no feedback and no silly background noises from me. But I look forward to your presentation. And then obviously opening up this, the the discussion later on. Okay, Great, great, How? How exciting to to to be here And and seeing all this familiar and and familiar to be faces. It's really exciting uh
elena targou:for me to be part of this on this first endeavor in in presenting myself and my work in this uh community uh in this network. Um, i'm really excited about um burden, Pedro joining in, because these are the two people who inspired me with our book on on Ethics and aesthetics. So um! I I send them out the invitation to participate, and and I know how busy they are, their schedules and everything. So it's. It's really really exciting for me to to see them here today. Um, let me um Oops. Can you see my the screen now?
Nicole Brown:Not yet.
elena targou:I did something. It's Okay, So uh portion of this screen. That's right. Yes, and then just click share. That's it. It's coming up. Now.
Nicole Brown:Um!
elena targou:You need to click on the Powerpoint presentation at the moment we've got the the the the zoom thing. Yeah, you're already in the zoom room. So it's fine. That's it. And now you open the the Powerpoint presentation at the bottom of your screen. There we go. That's it. Got it now. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. So um. Let me in turn um welcome you to this uh research seminar series on ethical issues for the practice. Um, as a research network. Um, I am, as Nicole said of a system psychologist and psychotherapist, I reside and work in Athens, Greece and um my topic for today uh, hoping to be fruitful for the uh conversation that will follow is on ethics, research, and practice to his company. Three is a crowd. Now, when I start uh, when I first started thinking about the topic, and about how I uh what it means to me, and and how I can I? I I could present it uh the the question of my systemic background, and these three words ethics, research, and Practice, and how they all of them interconnected, I kept poking up in my head. So um as as a way to present my epistemology and my way of thinking. Uh, I thought, it will be um a welcoming or a jumping off a point to start with the abstract, let's say, sort of speed with this presentation. So the first question is, How can we understand ethics, research, and practice from a systemic point of view, if we can. And how does aesthetics clarify? If it does, the interwining relationship of the three for Beta and colleagues, the ones that are two of us to two of them are joining us right now, for in in their book um talk about it toward the force that has been unfolding. During the last four decades, where professionals of mental health researchers and educators have been opening up the dialogue on ethics, practice, and research from an epistemic and ontological point of view, and I couldn't agree more on that. So it seems that unless we continue naturalize the meaning of these ideas in a systemic epistemology. We, as professionals, will be losing the great significance of their connections by focusing on the divided Cartesian or Newtonian way of understanding them. So my hope, after this presentation is that not only that the tour goes on, but that we will have a chance among each other to um. Talk about our our epistemologies and our ideas on this matter. So let me uh start with another question of how can we connect, or how can we hold all this concept at the same time, and it seems as if systemic epistemology is, is a good uh starting point to start looking for connections, because systemic or systemic epistemology, the systemic thinking allows us to look at uh contextualize, or I mean um circular contacts in into relationships. So, for example, if we were to take the word ethics, and look at different uh dictionaries, books, articles, encyclopedias, Whatever have you in order to look for a definition of it? Then I think very easily we would come up with that with the definition that ethics prefers to ethical codes that are sort of act as guidelines for what therapies and researchers can and cannot do. However, if we were to look at the history of ethics or the history of ethical codes, then we will come to different conclusion, saying that they are ambiguous by design; that the ethical codes are ambiguous by design, meaning that they're not static, and they are formed inside of a context. Now that context could be any context, social context, political context, economical contexts, cultural context. So if we were, for instance, to look at different examples of research, experiments or therapeutic experiments. Um uh! If we were to uh talk about Albert Case, or uh the monster effect, or uh Milgram's experiment, or the bystander effect, then we will have a different conversation if we're we're leaving at that at those times. And because these experiments were considered to be ethical, were considered to be acts of research and therapy. Um, because at that time, within that context they made sense. However, if we were to to, to to transform the idea of of research or practice or ethics. Um. And how these experiments were conducted nowadays, then we will be drawing different conclusions, because the context will be different, which may again make this thing well. How ethical and ethics, how ethical or unethical ethics are, or how guiding or guid the guidelines are! What does What does it mean? Um. In nineteen seventies we all know of the Bellman Report, which was done exactly to protect people from human research, because nowadays we need to confirm that there there is a we have consent, we have the do no harm, and we have confidentiality or in check things that are considered to be ethical that are considered to be ground rules for research and practice which were not given uh in previous times. For example, in those five experiments that I just showed you so for better and colleagues, when, as far as saying that practice as a word, has the same ambiguity as ethics, so practice they propose is a word which produces a differentiation between meaning and sense, concept and expression. Ethic and aesthetic. As a concept, they say practice has to do with ethics, but as an expression it deals with living experience, and that comes from the Greek word. Imagine that as this is which means sensory, perceptual, and corporeal experience, So both ethics and research and practice are multi-dimensional concepts, because they they enclose not just concepts and meanings, but also the living experiences that we have as humans have of these meanings. So unless we're able to hold that multi-dimensionality, all at the same time, all we'll be doing is having cause and effect conversations among each other regarding research, ethics, and practice and sort of follow this the so-called grandmother cell theory, and although I have nothing against grandmother's. Actually, I had a a wonderful relationship with my grandmother, and they are wonderful human beings. Ah, if we keep on um on in closing the conversation on ethics, practice, and research in, in, in linear thinking, then we'll be losing a lot of their meaning and and their context that they they are embedded in one hundred and one. And that's because we live by engaging, relating, and making sense of our experience. Ethics, research, and therapy are indeed epistemological and ontological entities, because they emphasize or they highlight. How we live, we understand and engage with the world. Now, systemically speaking, we, as the researchers and practitioners in order to hold this multi-dimensionality need to move in between different territories of knowledge and action, and that is, we need, or let's say we, we have to work on being able to, uh hold on different uh of information from different sciences. That is, for example, biology, neurology, neurobiology, which is very much in fashion. Now, mathematics, quantum physics imagine that sociology, ethology, social anthropology, psychiatry, and of course, the wonderful world of the arts, and that because the reality is that life is a connection between all these subjects, and in order to understand ethics, practice, and research, we need to um have our ears open and our eyes open in the plethora of information that. Uh we get from different sources of information. Um, I apologize. If I don't pronounce um the the last name correctly, it's a German uh researcher. So uh, When, so far as to say, to define systemic research as a theoretical and methodological approach that measures, analyzes and models the structures and functioning of complex dynamic systems at a biological mental in social level, and I know it sounds very complex, and i'm sure it is, but it speaks to the heart of the matter, which is that people us living systems, living beings, our biopsychosocial agents, because we do influence and are being influenced by internal and external environments. So As long as we hold these concepts divided the bio cycle, social and ethics, practice and research. As long as we all these concepts divided, then we will be having trouble capturing their essence. And the reason is because humans, as we are pro part of ecosystems, a major paradigm shift, as we all know, came uh with the uh, the concept of second order, Cybernetics. Nora Bateson, in one of her latest presentations on the matter and cybernetics a few days ago, gave a very simple definition about that by saying that it's a complex system, a second order, cybernetics, um uh answers to how a complex system is observing another complex system. So if we were to um note or to to pay attention to that sentence, Um! And the the basic verb that actually created that paradigm shift was in in research and ethics and therapy is the verb. Observe, because at the time what second order cybernetics did is that it put the researcher, the therapist, the people who were interested in ethics. They they it put the um uh the the person, the scientist in the middle of the context, as being part of that context, the context that he or she is studying, researching, or having a conversation on ethics. So there is no passive option. The uh, and by being very dynamic and energetic in our observation, in, in, in, in the observation of us, being complex systems, observing other public systems, being another human being in a research environment or a client in a therapeutic situation or another living. Um uh organism. Uh, we not only have the ability to observe, but to act on reflection, to to have an understanding of what it is that we do, and how our actions and our way. We see things reflect back on ourselves by the mere action of observation and being part of that environment. So again Barbara was when, as far as saying that we need that ongoing, reflecting search for the medical senses of reality in one thousand nine hundred and eighty four famous biologists and researchers as well. Um again highlighted the fact that We are part of an ecological thinking system, and we are able to reflect upon our actions and their consequences, and ourselves, and how all of that are are seeing and lived within an embedded context. So if I I venture at this point to to to invite you to to um, pretend that we're back in the one thousand nine hundred and sixty-three New York at the New York to do at Bronx, where um at the time the the the zoom was advertising. I'm sure that you all know the picture I I was advertising the fact that they had capture and cage the most dangerous animal in the world. So they were inviting people to visit the zoom and and and parade have a parade uh in order to um have a look at the most dangerous animal in the world, and what they had done was that they had created a room where there was a mirror, and and whoever was passing by was able to look on himself. I mean they were able to reflect. Uh, I see their reflection, he's, or her reflection; and and seeing that reflection under the inscription, the most dangerous animal in the world, as far as the artistic um um side goes Asher, Again, a very well known um image maker of the twentieth century has done wonderful uh works of art with uh, with reflections. They use the use of reflection. For example, in this slide you can look at the reflecting hands. So again see that as an invitation of how it shifts our uh, we're thinking, and are perceiving when we can uh work with our reflection. So the one hand works and and relates to the other hand, while being in the same sort of circuit in the same circular context in the uh psychotherapeutic world. William James Um, an old fellow uh a psychoanalyst and researcher, was actually the first or among the first psychotherapists and researchers who supported the method of reflection as a research tool, and that was back in the nineteenth century. But it was quickly put aside as a research tool, because it created a long battle among professionals over its accountability. Now the reason is was that it showed the different between what therapist or researchers actually uh thought they were doing versus what they actually we're doing. So, instead of looking back and re-examining their hypotheses, these professionals I mean us professionals started by using each other over the methodology they use over how, for example, they use reflection, so they they weren't constant. They did not concentrate on what it meant to have reflection as a research tool, and there went I mean that a reflection as a research tool when down the drain. Um, But it was brought back in life, sort of speak again by by again highlighting the living systems, our primary mindful systems, and the process of living is a process of cognition. It's a process of relating, of of relating, catching a wonderful Italian philosopher and researcher and therapist spoke about the signs of becoming. Now imagine that imagine having human sciences being defined as sciences of becoming, and imagine the word becoming as as a word or as a word that allows you, allows us to hold on to ambiguity, to what's unusual to what's different to what's different. That makes a difference. So imagine how different research therapy or conversation about ethics, for example, would be if we were to stay. As for better and call you suggested at the imminent plane where they're in practice made and engage in a stochastic process where the final outcome is not known, and imagine how different research and therapy would be if we were to hold on to the systemic premise that sciences should continually attempt to falsify their own hypothesis. In other words, again, a sketch, and suggested we should never fall in love with our hypotheses, being researchers, therapists, or whatever have you in human sciences, and in a way, they always part of an indefinite triangulation between data clients ourselves, the world, the context, because by being part of that indefinite triangulation we live. We have a living experience what it means um, to be part of a Synergetic system, and and that means that we have the sort of ability to um to to look at and perceive the patterns that connect again by Kimi in his book Aesthetics of Change Um, and by doing that we would, we're able to sort of repeat that sort out the repeated interrelationships among all members of an ecosystem that would enable us to more fully comprehend the more and compassing recursive patterns connecting every living being. But how complex can complexity go? How high does the complexity go? Well, Actually, for a systemic speaking. I mean the system thinkers the complex, I mean, the sky is the limit. But um uh to to to to talk a uh pragmatics as Well, we need to lower uh the the levels of complexity. And, for example, look at the how useful linear thinking is, and how useful at times cause and effect is because when we start working, or when we start um paying attention, or or being interested in in in certain things that we need to start working at a low level of complexity, and that is cause and effect, that is linear thinking. But even though we're doing that base and suggest it's better to uh work on that level. Yes, that's fine. But we always need to go back to the larger system and see how the low level of complexity relates and make sense is becomes meaningful at a larger um level of complexity, because people are or are not, just what a conclusion says they are. So. Um uh, and that that's because a part is an obstruction of a unifying call it pop, part of something, a part of the research part of therapy part of ethics, for example, does not um uh give us answers if we look. If we were to look at that, to connect that part with the unifying whole. We need to to make um a connection between that part and the unifying whole in order to make sense of our research in therapy. And again, That's because human beings exist in ecological relations which are circular, recursive, homeo, dynamic, and cybernetic. What we have to let go or be more skeptical of again is how we use linear thinking and to avoid using the concept of input output in order to explain living systems. So it it is important to understand, and what to have in mind, uh how we make distinctions, How do we decide to make a distinction between ethical or unethical, researchable or nonresceptible therapeutical or non therapeutical, because through our reflecting actions we produce meaningful relational contexts, and that is, uh being able to look at and and and perceive circular contacts which is life. We are responsible for doing that. We are responsible for what we do. We are responsible for how we do things because responsibility is not individually centered. It's not individually based. It is not at the topology, but it becomes mimicful within human living contexts. In a way it's what Sheila Mcnam is suggest by looking at or looking at or talking about communal engagement. Uh It's what brick krousy uh in the uh talks about when she talks about relational research and the search that continues search for perspectives. Because that's how we can do transforming, and be part of transforming relational practices. What is labeled as truth or fact, ethical or unethical, researchable or non researchable, therapeutical or non therapeutical, and joys that status only by virtue of communal engagement, because we live in a complex world, and the best our research can do is provide access to that diversity and complexity orienting ourselves towards seeing patterns that connect leads us to experiencing that living experience, the sense of aesthetics in our ecosystem. And that means creating a shift in our epistemology and ontology, where we move from low levels of complexity to higher levels of complexity, from cause and effect to a more encompassing systemic understanding of what it means to be part of an ecosystem. Uh is actually a word um by um ancient African tribes, and it means that I am what I am because of what we all are, and by getting to the conclusion of my presentation. Let me just give you a very personal note from our daily activity and life by showing you a picture of my dog and the P. That we usually take. So this is Cooper Cooper is a rescue hunting dog, and he's about five years old now. So because of his energy, as you can imagine. Every day we have this Rachel, where we take this road. Um uh, that's in the mountain, and I him free, and he walks around and sniffs around and chases birds and whatever, and has fun. So um the line off of a stones that you're seeing was actually uh we're put there to to let the walkers know that that's the main road, and that has been there for many, many, many, many years. Um! What happened was that a few months ago it rained so bad cats and dogs literally that they may grow caved in, so it wasn't as easy to walk on as it was before, and that was at that time was the um. When I I I saw, I perceive that there was another side this side, another side another a path next to the main road that would make my life easier, and I could walk on. And so they they, I mean for me It was just amazing when I was walking on that path on that road by saying, Oh, my God, it's as if the the caving in allowed the the the the this side what the side path to appear as the main road, and and to me that's sort of like a metaphor by saying that, allowing the shift allowing change to to happen is how we can make change happen. So um again another just another um picture of the dog, and and just um back getting back to the um title of this presentation. Yes, to the company three is a crowd, but the as they say, the more the merrier, because that's how we can all have a party. Thank you very much.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much, Helena. Thank you. I can see um a round. Of Of course we can't hear it, obviously. But okay, thank you very, very much. Um, just to say Um, it's obviously it's really really exciting to hear you talk about your work and about what you're saying. There, I do have questions, but at the same time I don't want to necessarily hog the conversation. So anybody who, if you have any questions or comments, perhaps, or you want to to, to, to pitch into the conversation, please make yourself known to me. I do keep an eye on the chat box, and I keep an eye on any raised hands, virtually or really um. So you know, just let me know if there's anything that you would like to to add in, and to come in for um to kind of kick us off with the with the discussion, if you like. Then i'm I'm. I'm really excited about what you're saying about the shift and the changes, and about looking at things that from a more systemic sort of viewpoint. Um, i'm just kind of wondering. Um, You know how popular is that opinion? Um in your field. And how popular are you because of that opinion in that field, you know, is is there? What What does it? What What does it actually mean? As a researcher working on that cusp of, you know, like you said ethics, um, research and practice. What does it mean in in in real life? Is Is there a danger of actually going down that route.
elena targou:Hmm. Well, it gets lonely some at times. Uh the truth is, but um I I I honestly I deep down, I mean from my heart believe that it's a more enriching um route. So um um, yes, it could be uh become complex uh in in research or in therapy, and that's why I believe that um uh doing the cause. In fact, thinking or doing the cause and effect research is very um uh is very uh credible and rigorous as well. But we just need to have, or at least I try to have, that um. You know what i'm doing is just part of something, and i'm trying to have in my head, and and at times outside of my head as well in therapy and research, the fact that I need to sort of combine that the the outcome was something that's bigger than just the outcome percent. So um! I wouldn't say that it's dangerous. I would say that it needs more work, or or at least more sharing of ideas.
Nicole Brown:Thank you. And can I just ask you to stop sharing your screen so that we can see you a little bit more as well. That'd be great. Okay? Um, I do have some other questions, but i'm just wondering if there are any questions from the room. If it all comments at this stage, be it through. I'm. I'm going to unmute you. Hang on um. You need to unmute yourself first um
pietrobarbetta:ask on, mute. There we go. Yes, perfect. Thank you. Uh, When you, When you were talking about I was connecting with the what I was explaining to my student just before the this and uh they uh, one of them is working on a paper in which he tries to uh explain the chapter of the ingabit crowds when she is talking about the street and smooth space. Uh, when I met once I met him in, and I asked him, What does What do you mean when you talk about? I don't understand. Can you explain to me any Gave a good explanation? Very nice explanation that was. Uh, uh, imagine you are in a in a small space like a C tiny bolts. But you don't have uh any kind of uh way to to know from these. No, because you lost your your uh, I I don't remember what the name of the and and so but you have a uh, you have a um uh a Cd. So I kind of think that you can give a an an explanation to the, to the safety on the on the ground, and you have a but when the boat gets the point you are not there. So this is yes, wonderful.
elena targou:Yes, thank you. Thank you, Peter, for for saying it. Thank you to you.
Nicole Brown:I think on that day is trying to connect
umberta telfener:uh for you to explain it, to tell us some research that you, did you not, You know, connecting ethics and research and practice? Because I really think that the uh, the practice based research will be the research of the future, and I really think that you know we are a a talking about me. I'm not so familiar with the so many researches
elena targou:Oops
umberta telfener:about in in Paris to talk about ethics, and second, or the cybernetics. He started saying this phrase, This telling this story, he said, You know what to talk about second or that side their networks. But it's very, very difficult to talk about ethics, and so that will be the next conference. I will you, when i'm looking forward. In the meanwhile I would like to have some examples of this uh practice based research, please. Thank you.
elena targou:Sure, Thank you,
Nicole Brown:Eleanor. Do you want to to answer that question. Have you got any examples of any practice-based research from your work?
elena targou:Well, um uh the the the research that I think is is getting is is close to to that. Um uh, to to to to contextualizing the three is is the research that I've been doing for the last years on how uh on self reflections. So what it means to uh uh, the self of therapist, or or how it influences, or is, is getting influenced, and or influences the therapeutic uh diet. And actually that was part of a kind of the presentations that I did. And I think that's how we met the two of us met at um the uh Conference and Qualitative Research, where I presented How um the that that part of being a a reflective uh living system. So I talked and um about what it meant for me to be part of the therapeutic system, and being aware of that, and and actually um plus plus the uh difficulty that we had during the call for the years uh with the uh doing uh conversation. I mean, there have been research online. Um. And so uh another research that I've um that i'm still working on, because these are our work um in in progress as well, is what I presented in uh September in Efta, where I met uh and uh she um talked to me about the the book that was uh just released. Um, uh. So I talked about uh again, the online therapy, and how um that! How we kept track of the conversations that we had, and how we kept track of the uh, of the conversations of therapy being a living experience. So how we kept track of our, for example, bodily reactions, both uh myself and the and the clients, how we kept track of our emotions, our ideas, and how we spend some time after sessions were over. Uh to talk about that, and and and connect our experiences sort of uh engage. How we engaged in that Synergetic system. Um, So I don't know if that answers uh uh on where this curiosity I mean or question at this point. But that's the most relevant that I have. Um on that aspect.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much, Eleanor, and I can see I can see a thumbs up so. Um, it's. It's obviously been a very thank you very much. There are no other questions at this stage. I'm going to pitch in with another one um, and and it's kind of linking to what i'm better with saying as well, because i'm better with saying, see things that um the kind of practice based research is of research of the future. Um, And it's really interesting because it basically taps into this idea of the value of professional knowledge. And now you kind of Elena, in your presentation you were talking about sort of the historical development of of ethics, and you know how how ethics is contextualized, and how what was appropriate. Twenty years ago, or forty years ago, it would now be totally inappropriate. And so there is that element. But i'm also kind of wondering um in that idea that Omberta was raising. You know the professional knowledge in that triangular in in that triangle that you've raised?
elena targou:How has How has the perception of this professional knowledge developed? Do you have any ideas in terms of what what you know? How this may shift again those kind of multi-dimensionalities that you're talking about right? Well, as I was preparing for that presentation, and I I was reading books left and right. Ah! It became apparent that the knowledge of multi-dimensionality is not new. It's something that was uh in in the minds of professional, of of researchers and therapists, and very well known ones. Actually, for example, Pige, the French psychologist, or even William James, as I said in my presentation, um a um basin from from uh an anthropological point of view. So it wasn't it's not something that's new, but it's different Now is that we allow ourselves to incorporate it in our research, in theory and practice. So it's it's it has been around. It's just that. I I believe that psychology was so much phoned off being um rigorous and and and and and accountable through the medical um system, or through the medical way of doing research that somehow thought that um using uh or being in in the stream of a multi-dimensionality, or reflecting, or being in that in the stream of participant observations that that somehow would they minimize uh the scientific outlook that wanted to have, because from the very birth of psychology, psychology, and philosophy are much more at hand than Uh is with the medicine. I mean medicine and clinical experiments were very much more connected than uh medicine or clinical experiments, and psychology is. Um, so I I don't. I don't think that it's something new. It has been there. But I think what has shifted is that we allowing ourselves now to be more, We're curious about that. We are opening, for example, a space or a window uh to invite that new outlook in our uh work as therapist and researchers.
Nicole Brown:But can I just ask, though, isn't it in a in a way sort of more difficult to do this kind of work, because you obviously uh not only talking about voltage and that mentality Here you also talking about several disciplines, you certainly no longer just. I mean, you mentioned yourself all of those different disciplines that you're tapping into. So does that not mean that actually Um, An individual researcher, needs to have a lot more skills and a lot more knowledge in a much broader sense, and and a much wider sort of experience rather than just a disciplinary sort of narrow food potentially.
elena targou:Well, I think that not only it's it's important. I think it's sort of mandatory, or or at least I welcome. I welcome that complexity in my life, in my professional life. Well, it has actually helped me in my personal life as well. But um! What I can say for sure is that I have been. I have been seeing a difference in how I connect with people in my research or in my practice, because by reading, for example, neurobiology or social anthropology, it opens my mind or even physics. It opens my mind to actually believe that other people are complex living systems. And And so yes, yes, I was asking. I think that it's not a matter of forty years. It's a matter of of a lot of centuries,
pietrobarbetta:I think, more or less. And so it is from the seventeenth century that the reason you know I a a brief inside of those of the that is it, mon, is the brief in which it is is, Consider something that is connected to practice, and not something that has been preached from the transcendental world, or something like this. So we are api on this. Um bet. Some thoughts in the very important aspect, like the two ideas that remember us, that we are monitor, that we are in the practice. We are what we are. We have not my thought. I don't know not me. I we are. We don't have models, we don't have models that that frame the people in some way, but we have to to to deal with intuition in the in the social practice or in the therapeutical practice moment by moment, because we're inside. This is the the notion of culture, of the structure of the if like not to now, which is also the the way in which some Francis is Don't, fall in off with your own hypotheses, because your hypothesis is like a the the the structural dream, when you arrive
elena targou:somewhere else Well, and and even if i'm, if I may just add to that um the the the fact that um we don't have necessarily to do or use linear thinking in our practice in theory goes way back to Aristotle as well, Who? Ha! Who is is considered to be the father of logic, but in that in in that philosophy he was the one who actually um said that that at times uh we do not. We cannot conclude through input output. We have what's called a pedogenesis, meaning. We have other factors, other, I say, intuition, or or other context or other information that does not um make us draw the the the hypothesis, or the conclusion that we were after.
K.Papachristopoulos: Um. So thank you, Petro, for for for um. Yes, you there is. There is somebody who is unmute to themselves. But but, Mr. Papa Christopher. Yeah. Yeah, Just following the comment of Eleanor. Uh:thanks. You. Of course I know for this uh lighting presentation. You're always concrete. And uh, and following the the idea for Dr. Barbeta and you, i'd like to say in Greek, where I feel safe to share some notions for about Greeks here,
K.Papachristopoulos:since you will know that in Greek we have info and ethos, two works that represent ethics and habits. So, in a way, what what is called a ethics announcing Greek is related to habits. What we usually do develop our efforts. That is a very clear way to describe how these are interconnected in a way, and it's very close the way you you well present this uh ideas, and of course I I don't know if this are depicted in the way Sarah's work, because, you know, there is, uh, what what they vis us to do is stay simply just to to to describe how things are, and that that's That's a very basic uh, uh misleading assumption that may lead to this discussion. We're doing now.
elena targou:Nine.
Nicole Brown:Thank you very much. I really like that idea of of developing that sort of you know that strand of thought a little bit further between ethics and habits. I I really like that. I think i'm I may be emailing you just to say I may be I may be really new. So i'm like, Can I just say at this stage i'm quite aware of the time. Um, I do want to make sure that i'm wrapping up properly, so I would like to say it's um, Eleanor. First of all, thank you very, very much for for for spending this time with me and and for me. Um. On preparing the presentation, and doing the talk, and being here for the for the discussion as well. Um, it's really really exciting to to have you. Um! I have seen the comments in the chat box. I will respond to those. Thank you very much. I've seen those Um! What I would like to kind of offer you. Here is a quick opportunity to have a look as to what we have next, so our next um session and the practice. As a result, we'll be on the sixteenth of November, from two to three Pm. Again, i'm a great when it's. Meantime, uk time that is London time that on that one we will be talking about ethical dilemmas in twenty-centric British music, education, history, research. So you will see It's quite a different sort of discipline, but it's obviously also talking about ethical dilemmas relating to research projects um that are often um, you know. Sort of within um desk based research archive of research. Um, you know. And and actually, there is a lot of ethical dilemmas to be unpicked. Then um! It's Dr. Ross Pervis from the University College, London, who will be presenting on that day, and in case you're interested and want to find out a little bit more about the practice as research network. Here is the um, all of the the documents and and also my email address, and I have put the links into the chat box as well. Please do feel free to check us out. And again, Eleanor, thank you very, very much for for for doing this today,
elena targou:and I look forward to meeting all of you again in the near future. That will be fun. Thank you very much. The pleasure is all mine.
Nicole Brown:Thank you. I'm going to stop the recording. There we go,